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Luka

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Well, Im not so sure really. I really really dont want to touch this subject if its sore, but the SS were significant werent they? I mean, they were sent to the front lines to fight so that they could achive victory. If that is the case then surely they should be considered in the strategy? Or I guess, elite troops would just be SS but not labelled as such...hrm, guess I just answered my own question. Spaz.
 

NobillyT

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Originally posted by jchastain
Without wanting to get into a too detailed discussion I would say that elite units do exist in the game. They are created on the basis of (1) leadership, (2) equipment, and (3) experience.

Unfortunately units do not have experience. :( Instead unit effectiveness depends on 1 and 2. I kinda think it's silly that green soldiers under a great general perform better in combat than do hardened veterans under an average general. But, hey should be a good game nonetheless! :)

Edit: From what I understand leaders gain experience tho!
 

unmerged(881)

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Originally posted by NobillyT
Unfortunately units do not have experience. :( Instead unit effectiveness depends on 1 and 2.

Also technology, terrain, surprise, and a host of other factors affect a unit's combat effectiveness.

Edit: From what I understand leaders gain experience tho!

You understand correctly.
 

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The experience model for HOI does appear to be more simplistic than I would prefer. Leader experience is a general proxy for overall unit experience as well as leadership skills. I would like to see a more accurate modeling in a future HOI2.

Unit Experience is important and does impact Grand Strategy. The North African campaign in 1943 was waged largely to give the green American troops some combat experience and test their capabilities before an invasion of Western Europe. Experience is really measured on a parabolic curve. The first three months of fighting make a BIG difference in unit performance. The next three months help a good bit, but not as much as the first three. After a year, another 3 months doesn't help very much. After 3 years, it makes almost no difference at all.

I would like to see a model whereby units have experience and they progress in capability on a parabolic curve. Furthermore, when the units are reinforced, their experience decreases. With minor reinforcements, it should have a minimal impact as the veteran NCOs can place replacements in less critical roles until they become more acclimated. As the losses mount and there are fewer experienced troops and NCOs, the impact of replacements would become more significant. So you would have an inverse parabolic curve for experience loss during replenishment. Less than 30% losses might have a minimal impact. More than 50% would decimate the experience base.

In fact, I would suggest that experience is largely the application of the tactics gained through infantry/armored research. Units should not automatically apply the full benefit of those avenues of research. Instead, the existance of those tactics should provide some base capability (due to training) and then experience growth should be capped based upon research level, simulating the improved execution of those tactics. But in that way, the green troops of a tactically superior nation are not automatically more adept than very experienced troops of a less developed foe.

The creation of elite units could then be handled by giving some experience to the unit at creation. The builder is simply taking more time to train the unit in those tactics. Because no training can be a substitute for real combat, only a minimal level of experience could be provided. Perhaps an amount equal to the first 3 months of fighting described above might be appropriate? And that additional training, in addition to having some additional cost, would also delay the introduction of the unit by 6 months as it takes longer to gain experience through training than it does through trials of fire.

Finally, I wouold like to see experience gain be based upon the difficulty of the battle fought. You don't learn a lot wiping out a nearly defenseless foe or retreating at the first sign of the enemy. Hard fought close battles are much harder teachers. If the "odds" of the battle are 2:1 or 1:2, experience awarded should be half as much if it were 1:1. Likewise 3:1 or 4:1 should award a third or a quarter respectively.

As for playability, there needs to be some grouping and labeling of experience levels just to make the system understandable to the general gamer. Perhaps units progress from Green to Tried, Seasoned, Verteran and finally Hardened with color codes for each status to make the whole system more easily represented.

All of that is in regards to unit experience. I would also retain leader experience, but I would personally make it a bit more complex than the current system. My ideas for that will wait for later as I've rambled on enough for now. But to get back to the original point, I do think experience could be expanded to more accurately reflect both elite units and to better simulate the grand strategy moves that are made in relation to the experience level of the army.
 

Luka

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I very much agree. I though that being such an in depth game, and combat experience being one of the most important factors in a battle, Paradox would've implemented a system like the one you just described.
Oh well, a matter for the patch/HoI2 I guess.
 

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It amazes me that this subject comes up again, and again and again, ad naseum. And not just with HoI. Name virtually any WWII title and the subject of German national symbols and units comes up time and time again. The HoI producers have left any easy out to those for you who must have units that were deliberately not included. You can name them yourself. Ah ha! But those units would be generic like the rest of their German army counterparts and would not have true elite status. I would call into question how elite these units were compared to the rest of the German army as a whole. Sure, they were good solid units but, were they so much better that they deserve a special designation? I would say no they do not. Let us take Michael Wittman for example, he was one of the best tank commanders of the war. But, how well known would he have been, if instead, of being in a Tiger at Normandy, if he had been in a Pzkpf II? Chances are he would be one of the millions of nameless faceless dead and he would have never made it into the history books.

Part of what made these units elite was the fact that they got the best Germany had to offer at the time. This can be simulated in the Game. From a combat standpoint were these units quantitatively better than say the Panzer Lehr Division, or Rommel’s 21’st Panzer in North Africa? I would say that if there was it was minimal at best and on a strategic level such as HoI is modeled it is negligible and not really worth noting. To my humble opinion it just goes to show how nifty black uniforms can make some people obsess with a subject and an issue that has become very tedious and I think that Paradox’s take on the issue will help prevent people who are obsessed with this subject from detracting from what I believe will be a great game.
 

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Originally posted by JoshWeber
The Germans had several ranks that we don't have too. If you really need me to, I can look it up and get back to you, or you could trust me. ;)
StabsHauptman (sp?), direct translated staff Captain wich is a ranks between Captain and Major (Hauptsman and Major) is so far as I knows the only one. If ignoring SS and NCO.
 

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Originally posted by Micah Man
It amazes me that this subject comes up again, and again and again, ad naseum. And not just with HoI. Name virtually any WWII title and the subject of German national symbols and units comes up time and time again. The HoI producers have left any easy out to those for you who must have units that were deliberately not included. You can name them yourself. Ah ha! But those units would be generic like the rest of their German army counterparts and would not have true elite status. I would call into question how elite these units were compared to the rest of the German army as a whole. Sure, they were good solid units but, were they so much better that they deserve a special designation? I would say no they do not. Let us take Michael Wittman for example, he was one of the best tank commanders of the war. But, how well known would he have been, if instead, of being in a Tiger at Normandy, if he had been in a Pzkpf II? Chances are he would be one of the millions of nameless faceless dead and he would have never made it into the history books.

Part of what made these units elite was the fact that they got the best Germany had to offer at the time. This can be simulated in the Game. From a combat standpoint were these units quantitatively better than say the Panzer Lehr Division, or Rommel’s 21’st Panzer in North Africa? I would say that if there was it was minimal at best and on a strategic level such as HoI is modeled it is negligible and not really worth noting. To my humble opinion it just goes to show how nifty black uniforms can make some people obsess with a subject and an issue that has become very tedious and I think that Paradox’s take on the issue will help prevent people who are obsessed with this subject from detracting from what I believe will be a great game.
Agreed. The only differences were slight in quality, and that was about it. This isn't civilization, where each civ gets their own unit to distinguish themselves. Basically there's quite a list of units to choose from, and anything you see during WWII could be put into one of thos categories without building some countries like Germany new 'super-units'.