Possibilites of Italian unification between 1400 and 1520

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Faeelin

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Anyone care to give me some help on how the city states of italy could have unified in this time period? A more successful ottoman empire along with other incursions forces a defensive alliance? A more profitable victory for france in the italian wars? Any other ideas are welcome.
 

Dark Knight

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Originally posted by Faeelin
Anyone care to give me some help on how the city states of italy could have unified in this time period? A more successful ottoman empire along with other incursions forces a defensive alliance?
The Ottoman Empire in this period was still engaged in consolidating its hold over the Balkans and Asia Minor.

A more profitable victory for france in the italian wars? Any other ideas are welcome.
Well, even after the victory of the Habsburgs over France in the Italian wars, which resulted in Spain controlling Naples and Milan in addition to Sicily and Sardinia, the Italian states weren't united. French aims were first Naples, and later Milan and Naples, so they would be even less likely to complete take over the peninsula given the propensity of the nearby states to form alliances against too-dominant powers.
 

Jayavarman

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No chance. The Italians held loyalty only to their cheif city-state. They called themselves Venetians, Pisans, Florentines, Neapolitans, etc. "Italy" was merely a geographic expression.
 

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Yet Machiavelli could issue a call for Italian unity called "Il Principe". I'm sure that it was not a widespread sentiment, but Machiavelli probably wasn't alone in this.
 

Faeelin

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True, but the concept had been around longer than the concept of a united Germany (the HRE aside, of course).

But an alliance coalescing into a united italy? Here's an interesting idea.

1450: War with Hungary provokes another crusade against Ottomans; coalition of Hungary, Poland, Bosnia, Wallachia, and Serbia led by the Hungarian, John Hunyadi, won a victory;

If the Ottomans win this, they've pretty much exhausted available hungarian armies/manpower. Taking a huge swath of hungary isn't too unfeasible at this point. Overexpansive, perhaps, but no more so than their other conquests were.

Considering that in 1478, Mehmed cut Venice's communication lines to the sea, and forced it to cede some of its Albanian territories to the Ottomans. Mehmed was en route to invade Italy and the Papacy in 1480 when he died. The Pope was even preparing to flee Rome for France out of fear of the impending Ottoman invasion.

So if Mehmed lives longer, or the Ottomans do better against Hungary, Italy will have at the border a larger ottoman state, possibly including austria (probably not, but...)

Remember the reason for German unification, as well as French?
 

Jayavarman

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Originally posted by Faeelin
Remember the reason for German unification, as well as French?

And what was that?
 

Faeelin

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I was always under the impression that foreign threats unified the nations (France the English, Germans the French/Austrians). Of course, you could apply that to other nations as well.
 

Jayavarman

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The French were united under a legitimate ruler. The Italians did not recognize any "King of Italy." The only "legitimate" ruler, and hardly so, was the Holy Roman EMperor. And I hardly would think the Italians would have followed his banner. Also, the Pope would not have joined this "unified Italy," unless it was he himself who ruled.
 

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Possibility

One possibility might be that another large empire could conquer Italy and hold it conquered long enough that the city-states lost some of their individual identity in favor of a pan-Italian revolt movement against the outside conquering empire. I see a situation like this in one long running campaign of a human moderated pbem called "Lords of the Earth". The conquering power in the situation I have in mind is the Holy Roman Empire, which is far more unified than in history.
 

Dark Knight

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Originally posted by Pirate Scum
Yet Machiavelli could issue a call for Italian unity called "Il Principe". I'm sure that it was not a widespread sentiment, but Machiavelli probably wasn't alone in this.
Machiavelli issued a call for Italy to eject the "barbarbians" (that is, French and Spanish interlopers). This doesn't necessarily imply political unity.
 

Dark Knight

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CHAPTER XXVI



AN EXHORTATION TO LIBERATE ITALY FROM THE BARBARIANS



Having carefully considered the subject of the above discourses, and

wondering within myself whether the present times were propitious to a

new prince, and whether there were elements that would give an

opportunity to a wise and virtuous one to introduce a new order of

things which would do honour to him and good to the people of this

country, it appears to me that so many things concur to favour a new

prince that I never knew a time more fit than the present.



And if, as I said, it was necessary that the people of Israel should

be captive so as to make manifest the ability of Moses; that the

Persians should be oppressed by the Medes so as to discover the

greatness of the soul of Cyrus; and that the Athenians should be

dispersed to illustrate the capabilities of Theseus: then at the

present time, in order to discover the virtue of an Italian spirit, it

was necessary that Italy should be reduced to the extremity that she

is now in, that she should be more enslaved than the Hebrews, more

oppressed than the Persians, more scattered than the Athenians;

without head, without order, beaten, despoiled, torn, overrun; and to

have endured every kind of desolation.



Although lately some spark may have been shown by one, which made us

think he was ordained by God for our redemption, nevertheless it was

afterwards seen, in the height of his career, that fortune rejected

him; so that Italy, left as without life, waits for him who shall yet

heal her wounds and put an end to the ravaging and plundering of

Lombardy, to the swindling and taxing of the kingdom and of Tuscany,

and cleanse those sores that for long have festered. It is seen how

she entreats God to send someone who shall deliver her from these

wrongs and barbarous insolencies. It is seen also that she is ready

and willing to follow a banner if only someone will raise it.



Nor is there to be seen at present one in whom she can place more hope

than in your illustrious house,[*] with its valour and fortune,

favoured by God and by the Church of which it is now the chief, and

which could be made the head of this redemption. This will not be

difficult if you will recall to yourself the actions and lives of the

men I have named. And although they were great and wonderful men, yet

they were men, and each one of them had no more opportunity than the

present offers, for their enterprises were neither more just nor

easier than this, nor was God more their friend than He is yours.



[*] Giuliano de Medici. He had just been created a cardinal by Leo X.

In 1523 Giuliano was elected Pope, and took the title of Clement

VII.



With us there is great justice, because that war is just which is

necessary, and arms are hallowed when there is no other hope but in

them. Here there is the greatest willingness, and where the

willingness is great the difficulties cannot be great if you will only

follow those men to whom I have directed your attention. Further than

this, how extraordinarily the ways of God have been manifested beyond

example: the sea is divided, a cloud has led the way, the rock has

poured forth water, it has rained manna, everything has contributed to

your greatness; you ought to do the rest. God is not willing to do

everything, and thus take away our free will and that share of glory

which belongs to us.



And it is not to be wondered at if none of the above-named Italians

have been able to accomplish all that is expected from your

illustrious house; and if in so many revolutions in Italy, and in so

many campaigns, it has always appeared as if military virtue were

exhausted, this has happened because the old order of things was not

good, and none of us have known how to find a new one. And nothing

honours a man more than to establish new laws and new ordinances when

he himself was newly risen. Such things when they are well founded and

dignified will make him revered and admired, and in Italy there are

not wanting opportunities to bring such into use in every form.



Here there is great valour in the limbs whilst it fails in the head.

Look attentively at the duels and the hand-to-hand combats, how

superior the Italians are in strength, dexterity, and subtlety. But

when it comes to armies they do not bear comparison, and this springs

entirely from the insufficiency of the leaders, since those who are

capable are not obedient, and each one seems to himself to know, there

having never been any one so distinguished above the rest, either by

valour or fortune, that others would yield to him. Hence it is that

for so long a time, and during so much fighting in the past twenty

years, whenever there has been an army wholly Italian, it has always

given a poor account of itself; the first witness to this is Il Taro,

afterwards Allesandria, Capua, Genoa, Vaila, Bologna, Mestri.[*]



[*] The battles of Il Taro, 1495; Alessandria, 1499; Capua, 1501;

Genoa, 1507; Vaila, 1509; Bologna, 1511; Mestri, 1513.



If, therefore, your illustrious house wishes to follow these

remarkable men who have redeemed their country, it is necessary before

all things, as a true foundation for every enterprise, to be provided

with your own forces, because there can be no more faithful, truer, or

better soldiers. And although singly they are good, altogether they

will be much better when they find themselves commanded by their

prince, honoured by him, and maintained at his expense. Therefore it

is necessary to be prepared with such arms, so that you can be

defended against foreigners by Italian valour.



And although Swiss and Spanish infantry may be considered very

formidable, nevertheless there is a defect in both, by reason of which

a third order would not only be able to oppose them, but might be

relied upon to overthrow them. For the Spaniards cannot resist

cavalry, and the Switzers are afraid of infantry whenever they

encounter them in close combat. Owing to this, as has been and may

again be seen, the Spaniards are unable to resist French cavalry, and

the Switzers are overthrown by Spanish infantry. And although a

complete proof of this latter cannot be shown, nevertheless there was

some evidence of it at the battle of Ravenna, when the Spanish

infantry were confronted by German battalions, who follow the same

tactics as the Swiss; when the Spaniards, by agility of body and with

the aid of their shields, got in under the pikes of the Germans and

stood out of danger, able to attack, while the Germans stood helpless,

and, if the cavalry had not dashed up, all would have been over with

them. It is possible, therefore, knowing the defects of both these

infantries, to invent a new one, which will resist cavalry and not be

afraid of infantry; this need not create a new order of arms, but a

variation upon the old. And these are the kind of improvements which

confer reputation and power upon a new prince.



This opportunity, therefore, ought not to be allowed to pass for

letting Italy at last see her liberator appear. Nor can one express

the love with which he would be received in all those provinces which

have suffered so much from these foreign scourings, with what thirst

for revenge, with what stubborn faith, with what devotion, with what

tears. What door would be closed to him? Who would refuse obedience to

him? What envy would hinder him? What Italian would refuse him homage?

To all of us this barbarous dominion stinks. Let, therefore, your

illustrious house take up this charge with that courage and hope with

which all just enterprises are undertaken, so that under its standard

our native country may be ennobled, and under its auspices may be

verified that saying of Petrarch:



Virtu contro al Furore

Prendera l'arme, e fia il combatter corto:

Che l'antico valore

Negli italici cuor non e ancor morto.



Virtue against fury shall advance the fight,

And it i' th' combat soon shall put to flight:

For the old Roman valour is not dead,

Nor in th' Italians' brests extinguished.
 

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Wow, "The Prince" double-spaced for our viewing pleasure.

Also, in this period, isn't there a great dichotomy between the Venetian and Milano republics, and the other Kingdoms, that would have prevented unification??

It would have been very interesting for history to have a united Italy under Venetian leadership. The history of colonization truly would have been different, especially if a few residents of Genoa would have sailed under the Italian flag.
 

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Venice and Milan / Genoa were at odds, over trade in the easern Med. and various threats (France for Milan, Ottomans for Venice).
Venice's leadership flagged after 1450s due to the loss of resources in maintaining a land "empire" as a buffer in Italy, Portugal's ventures around Africa (loss of Mideast trade monopoly), and increasing clashes with the Ottomans.
Could Venice have led a united Italy? I don't know. They were nominally Catholic (more interested in trade relations than religious fervor (this caused a few excommunications both of Doge and nation- would Italy have accepted their leadership?)), and had more ties to Byzantium than Rome in relation and culture.
Interesting, though, if it could happen - the loss of Cyprus and Crete could have been aborted with the support of the Papacy, andthey could have followed up the victories of the Ottoman navy with a serious campaign, and played a significantly more substantial role than doormat in the Napoleonic wars, etc.
 

Faeelin

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Hmm. So the italian states wouldn't have allied togetherif the ottomans ( sackers of byzantium, rampaging heathens of the east, etc.) had launched the invasion?

Maybe there's a reason italy ended up being a backwater.
 

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Originally posted by Dark Knight

Machiavelli issued a call for Italy to eject the "barbarbians" (that is, French and Spanish interlopers). This doesn't necessarily imply political unity.

Reread the chapter you have quoted and you will see that he repeatedly refers to "this country", lobbies for the elimination of mercenaries and the creation of "national" troops, etc. Of course, he wasn't expressing 19th century nationalism (how could he?), but he was looking for a "Prince" that could not only expel the foreigners, but rise to prominence in Italy, not just as a geographic expression, but as a political one. It didn't even have to be Florentine. For a while he thought it could be Cesare Borgia, later he believed it could be Lorenzo di Medici.

This is not just my view, but many scholars have seen Machiavelli as a proto-nationalist, even Gramsci wrote an essay on the Communist Party as the modern Prince, i.e., as the embodiment of the nation.
 

Dark Knight

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Originally posted by Pirate Scum

Reread the chapter you have quoted and you will see that he repeatedly refers to "this country", lobbies for the elimination of mercenaries and the creation of "national" troops, etc. Of course, he wasn't expressing 19th century nationalism (how could he?), but he was looking for a "Prince" that could not only expel the foreigners, but rise to prominence in Italy, not just as a geographic expression, but as a political one.
It's nationalist in that he clearly regards Italians as superior to foreigners and wants foreign troops and influence to be driven out of Italy.

If you want to you can read a desire for political unity into the references to a 'new order' and a 'liberator', but you can just as (or more) easily view it as a call for leadership of the Italian states in a league against the foreigners (not to mention that Machiavelli was trying to flatter the recipient of the book by implying that he was the right person to accomplish this).
 

unmerged(6618)

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Anyone notice how Machiavelli drops out one of the leaders he earlier mentioned? Subtle...

Its all just a metaphor for the rule of his new political philosophy anyways. Why rule a city-state when you could rule the world?
 

unmerged(255)

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Aug 27, 2000
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Actually Ottoman forces came closer to Italy than you might think---as close as stepping firmly on it actually :) The city of Otranto on the southeastern tip of the peninsula (Apulia) was besieged and conquered by an invading Turkish force, led by Gedik A. Pasha in 1480.

Ottoman forces held the fort till next year when Mehmet II "the Conqueror" died while leading a massive army, on his way to an unknown destination...some believe he was heading for Persia while others claim Italy was his target. In either case, following his death, a bitter civil war broke out between the legitimate heir to the throne, Beyazid II, and his younger brother Cem Sultan. Had Cem Sultan been captured and executed Beyazid might have moved against Italy but Cem managed to flee to the West and was used by the Pope to blackmail Beyazid II till Cem's death.

Hope that sheds some light on the issue; and no I don't believe Italy would be unified under one city state or the other even when facing an imminent Turkish invasion.

PS: My old land-lord was from Bari, man, he -hated- Northern Italians calling them all sorts of names and claiming they're worse than Albanians---for his mindset, that was saying alot :)
 

Faeelin

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So what would've happened if mehmed had invaded italy?