Portuguese Military and Naval capacities.

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Dell19

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For what its worth, I feel that military bonuses in national ideas should be very rare. My understanding is that Portugal's success was primarily based on their navy so I'm not sure its justified giving their army a buff.
 

bbqftw

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Significant mil bonuses are the norm for mil ideas nowadays. especially the case when pdx decided to give everyone in the French neighborhood strong mil traditions.

Province, burgundy, Austria, and castile all used to lack morale trad. And now England gained ICA trad? Its not completely nonsensical that Portugal gets some nice trad because why not. give to Brittany and navarra and Savoy while you at it too ty pdx <3

Even generic sets like German and divine get at least one bonus and often two.

So not having mil NI means you are way behind the curve army strength-wise.
 

Ixal

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For what its worth, I feel that military bonuses in national ideas should be very rare. My understanding is that Portugal's success was primarily based on their navy so I'm not sure its justified giving their army a buff.
Sadly thats the truth.
The argument for giving Portugal mil ideas is not that they had a strong military in history, but mostly just because everyone else has them. And because institution spread so fast europeans do not have a tech advantage any more so they kinda need mil ideas to keep up unless they blob hard.

A better way would be to remove most mil ideas from nations, but not only would a lot of people object to that the question remains what to replace them with? Over time EU4 has become more and more of a map painter simulation and mil ideas are the most useful ideas out there. Everything else has declined in importance as by now you can simply throw money at most problems and money is extremly plentiful.
 

Laurent1944

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Currently Portugal is a middle power than you can play if you want to do something else than blobbing everywhere. Seems OK to me. To turn it into one more military superpower is not necessary. If you want to conquer the world with Portugal, you can try to eliminate Castilla/Aragon and form Spain and take its ideas.
 

iquabakaner

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Currently Portugal is a middle power than you can play if you want to do something else than blobbing everywhere. Seems OK to me. To turn it into one more military superpower is not necessary. If you want to conquer the world with Portugal, you can try to eliminate Castilla/Aragon and form Spain and take its ideas.
That's not really the problem people were addressing. The thing is the Portuguese ideas don't really reflect what Portugal historically achieved, that is being a military power only in Africa and India, but not in Europe.
 

Casko

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Personally I'd imagine that Portugal could use the same treatment as for example Norway, with Norway having 2.5? if I remember correctly discipline boost.

so Portugal could have 10% Morale in its traditions so they do not get eaten up every single game by Morocco, then similarly a single idea for a navy boost, perhaps morale, perhaps combat ability. Or maybe durability, and add the 2.5% discipline boost to the navy idea.

This way Portugal is weaker compared to Spain and most other countries when it comes to military, but still has some bite against other countries. Similarly having the extra 10% morale is good not only to prevent Portugal loosing horribly to Morocco, but due to the permanent claims Castille can get on them due to their mission tree, it'd atleast make Portugal able to not get stacked wiped on the first engagement, and giving Portugal enough time to atleast pray its allies can come save them.

And while having 2.5% discipline is laughable for most parts it should be enough for both player, and AI to be able to go steal various trade posts around the globe without getting horribly beaten up by Hormuz.

Also can I just say that the event/decision to become a Brazil talked about earlier sounds Awesome!
 

Laurent1944

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Actually even in Africa and India, Portugal did not conquer an empire like is usual in EU4. It was successfull between 1500 and 1580 in establishing a series of fortified trade places in important ports (Ormuz, Goa, Cochin, Malacca). This can be done in game too.

But then the Portuguese army (17k men) was destroyed in a failed invasion of Morocco in 1578, and from then Portugal only lost places and power in the Indian Ocean. For example from 1593 to 1638 it made five unsuccessful attempts to conquer Ceylan. In the same time period it lost Ormuz, Cochin and Malacca.

So we have a very successful period, that is possible in game thanks to special Portuguese events and missions (I did not play Portugal with the current mission system, but before your had the right claims and received for free some places (at least Goa)). Holding these places against the main Indian countries is difficult, as it was historically.

The only nation sized colonies that Portugal built were through colonization, not conquests, in SE and SW Africa, and Brazil.
 

Afonso de Albuquerque

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Actually even in Africa and India, Portugal did not conquer an empire like is usual in EU4. It was successfull between 1500 and 1580 in establishing a series of fortified trade places in important ports (Ormuz, Goa, Cochin, Malacca). This can be done in game too.
Portugal didn't "establish" Goa, Ormuz or Malacca, they conquered them militarily. Cochin was defended in a battle that would make Skanderberg blush.

But then the Portuguese army (17k men) was destroyed in a failed invasion of Morocco in 1578, and from then Portugal only lost places and power in the Indian Ocean. For example from 1593 to 1638 it made five unsuccessful attempts to conquer Ceylan. In the same time period it lost Ormuz, Cochin and Malacca.
So, since, say, Poland was completely eaten up historically within the EU4 timeframe, they should get no military ideas at all? In fact, if you were to apply this same logic to any other tag in game, nobody would have any bonuses for anything at all. NIs are supposed to represent crucial positive moments in the history of a country. Military success in land battles certainly is a crucial part of Portuguese history, I'd say second only to the journeys of exploration.

The Dutch, for example, are rightly given land military ideas for having defeated the seeming unbeatable Spanish tercios when they became independent. Portugal, though consistently outnumbered, also defeated the very same Spanish around the same time in a 28 year long war to restore independence (this year marks the 350th anniversary of the end of that war). In EU4 logic this is totally implausible, Spain not only has far more development, it has +5% disc and +15% morale, Portugal has nothing at all. Giving Portugal military NIs doesn't turn them into a superpower, as @jamal bakr explained:
Well, that is a good argument not to give them coring cost reductions or something like that :p. They won rather impressive battles against many powers in their conquest of these trade points; no one is saying they should be Prussia-West, just that they shouldn't melt like wet toilet paper in front of any of their other regional powers.

Even with some military idea buffs, Portugal will still be capped just because of its low development, low force limit, and unpleasant expansion opportunities in N. Africa. Making them have the worst military is just overkill.
 

Lone_War

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I think you guys may be going about this the wrong way. How about, instead of changing their NIs to include land military ideas, instead we grant them a Mission. Upon completion of first overseas colony, Portugal gets +20% Morale and +10% Discipline for 75 years. Combine that with a National Idea of +20% Ship Durability and they should be good to go for beating up on people and exploring the world.
 

cuendillar

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An interesting way to help Portugal handle African/Asians without having them expand too much in Europe could be to give them +15% morale vs heathens if it's allowed by the mechanics. No country has that particular distinction, but for Portugal I think it would be a good fit for gameplay reasons.

The Historical Friend they already have means Castille won't invade unless Portugal messes with them first or something odd happens with alliance networks to make them lose it.
 

zeluis100000

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Once in a while someone brings this topic to discussion again. Personally I believe that what is in discussion is this: is Portugal a niche nation in EU4 or historical? Because, as Early Modern Age historian I say that the current Portuguese national ideas and decisions are somehow biased and not historical.

Like I said in a previous post, Portugal was a trade power because of brute force and diplomacy, not because of any kind of commercial or financial institution that justifies trade superiority, especially when compared with the Italian states, Hansa cities ou Netherlands. Also, the Portuguese Bourgeoisie was small and not rich (at the beginning of the explorations), and some of the richest, the “New Christians”, or converted Jews, were persecuted by Inquisition and forced to pay many taxes to the realm. So, this many trade bonus, honestly, I don’t know where they came from…

About the Portuguese military capabilities, I have to say that the Portuguese force during the period of exploration and expansion was based, of course, on sea power. The Portuguese ships were probably the best in the world until 1550, being surpassed by the British and Dutch, but still maintaining great vessels. I believe any kind of bonus would be historical, but ship combat ability I believe are the most. But the idea of unique ship units for Portugal is great. The Portuguese caravel, “nau” and galleon are good candidates for a mix of trade power and combat ability :D

The land power is somehow different. Portugal did not have a big standing army, nor is famous about the military organization (though we used the tercio system and, during the personal union with Spain, many Spanish units used Portuguese soldiers together with the Spanish and some Portuguese commanders as well). The kind of warfare Portugal was very successful was amphibious operations and sieges, both attacking and defending. So when people say Portugal should have bonus like discipline, I disagree, it is not historical. Morale, land fire, or infantry combat ability I believe are more historical. But in my humble opinion, the best military bonus to Portugal should be a “+1pipe” in battles in Portuguese provinces. It represents the “home” factor that helped our country in many defensive wars.

I guess some bonus about diplomacy would be historical. Those who are not familiar with Portuguese history might think this is weird but the fact of Portugal being a medium/small country in Europe made Portugal somehow “expert” in diplomacy, not only in Europe, but in every continent, finding local allies to help with the shortage of Portuguese manpower, and turning the natives against each other.

I believe paradox wanted to make Portugal a unique nation, so its NI are “special”, no historical. In order to be historical they need to represent the characteristics the built the empire: diplomacy, commerce, faith and war.
 

raikaria

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I cannot claim to be a history expert, but I have some knowledge about Portugal and Brazil history.

Portugal was a european superpower between late XV century and first half of XVI century.

Portugal has never been a superpower. Significant power; yes. Superpower; no. Superpower implies they were far and ahead of everyone else. Which they were not. XV/ Early XVI superpower was hands down the Ottomans and Ming.

To put it in modern terms; the U.S.A is commonly called the world's Superpower. Countries like France/GB and the other members of the G7 are not Superpowers; but they are major powers.
 

Afonso de Albuquerque

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Another way to make Portugal feel more unique would be to, during the first two Ages, allow them to hire a bonus free Explorer, free in the sense of mp cost and leader slot. This would also boost the naval power of Portugal, since it would pretty much ensure there is always a leader in a naval battle.