Portuguese Military and Naval capacities.

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Atilla 'The Hun'

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Portugal was one of the most influential and important empires during the EU IV era but imo Portugal isn't really represented as it should be. Their idea-set lack military and naval capabilities, so here is my suggestion to solve this issues in two ways.

First way is by changing the current idea-set. Double trade efficiency doesn't make any sense, why have two of the same bonuses if you can put another interesting ideas out of the so many available? This is where I think Portugal should have the ability to compete with the British, Dutch and Spanish navies by giving them a naval boost in HS CA or Naval morale.

Also the 'Royal Absolutism' idea doesn't match its current combination. I think it should represent something like either discipline or morale of armies. The Yearly absolutism is already a small but long term bonus in both administration and discipline.

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Second way is by keeping the current idea-set (Although I doubt that Paradox will keep it like this in the future) but give Portugal an unique infantry unit (Like Banners) to rival the stronger forces of other powers.
The Napoleonic Era units they recruited back in the days called the 'Caçadores' really matches the requirements I think. They were fast, disciplined and were seen as elite forces.

Here a quick overview :
The Caçadores was a Portuguese light infantry during the Napoleonic era. The name comes from the Portuguese word for hunter. They formed batallions consisting of five companies, four companies of Caçadores and one company of elite Tiradores.
tiradores in the nineteenth century wore brown uniforms and were armed with muskets or rifles. They carried brown backpacks and gray blankets. They wore stovepipe shako hats with prominent green plumes on the front.


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About the naval capacities, maybe Portugal can be the first nation in EU IV to have unique ships ? Special Heavies ships or Light ships which are more sustainable on oceans while having an extra damage modifier attached to them as well.
 
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Afonso de Albuquerque

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I think asking for unique units for Portugal, while it would be awesome, is probably unrealistic. However, it is undeniable that the National Ideas don't represent historic Portugal at all, there must be some military ideas to at least reach parity with the majority of other countries, and less focus on economic ideas. Plus, some of the ideas are just silly, why would the Bandeirantes give an extra merchant? And are there any other countries with repeated ideas (trade efficiency twice)?

Here were my suggestions from an earlier thread:
Code:
POR_ideas = {
   start = {
       land_morale = 0.10
       heavy_ship_power = 0.10
   }

   bonus = {
       global_trade_power = 0.20
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = POR
   }
   free = yes       #will be added at load.

   legacy_of_the_navigator = {
       range = 0.25
      navy_tradition = 0.5 #Legacy of the Navigator
   }
   afonsine_ordinances = {
      global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1 #Afonsine Ordinance
   }
   case_de_india = {
       defensiveness = 0.25
      trade_steering = 0.10 #Feitorias
   }
   land_before_faith = {
      merchants = 1
      trade_range_modifier = 0.25 #The First Globalization
   }
   open_up_the_guilds = {         
      global_spy_defence = 0.3 #Policy of Secrecy of Maritime Discoveries
   }
   royal_absolutism = {
       build_cost = -0.10
      trade_efficiency = 0.10 #Royal Absolutism
   }
   the_bandeirantes = {
       global_tariffs = 0.10
      global_colonial_growth = 10 #Encourage the Bandeirantes
   }
}
 
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cuendillar

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I can certainly agree with a naval boost being welcome, but not really boosting their armies. Portugal is set up as a country to leave Europe alone and beat up on lower-tech nations in Africa and South America - which is pretty historical. Boosting army morale/discipline is overkill against natives so would only apply to let them invade France or Spain in Europe - which I consider largely ahistorical while also making Portugal much less specialized to play.

I would definitely like to see the ship CA in traditions though, with the two TE bonuses combined to 15% from Feitorias. Construction cost is good, helps them to build up their limited European land - maybe even combine it with dev cost instead of absolutism and change the name.
 

Afonso de Albuquerque

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I can certainly agree with a naval boost being welcome, but not really boosting their armies. Portugal is set up as a country to leave Europe alone and beat up on lower-tech nations in Africa and South America - which is pretty historical.
Not really? Unlike Spain, Portugal did not fight any major wars against natives in South America or sub-Saharan Africa (in this time frame). They did fight a lot of land wars in North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula, India, the Arabian Peninsula and other coasts of the Indian Ocean -- all opponents that were roughly equal tech. Portugal needs army ideas not to become a land-battle powerhouse, but simply to reach an average performance since most countries that Portugal comes in contact with do have military bonuses.

Dev cost change (and even build cost to be honest) makes little sense, Portugal historically always struggled to keep up with European advances due to its position in the periphery and lack of capital stock. While the game should make it possible to play tall as Portugal and not take the historic route of exporting skilled manpower to the colonies and investing abroad what little capital the country generated, I don't see why the NI set should promote that.
 

iquabakaner

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I can certainly agree with a naval boost being welcome, but not really boosting their armies. Portugal is set up as a country to leave Europe alone and beat up on lower-tech nations in Africa and South America - which is pretty historical. Boosting army morale/discipline is overkill against natives so would only apply to let them invade France or Spain in Europe - which I consider largely ahistorical while also making Portugal much less specialized to play.

I would definitely like to see the ship CA in traditions though, with the two TE bonuses combined to 15% from Feitorias. Construction cost is good, helps them to build up their limited European land - maybe even combine it with dev cost instead of absolutism and change the name.
Portugal beat up on nations in India and Africa, which usually catch up on tech due to the way institution works right now. Considering that Portugal was usually outnumbered, army morale/discipline is kinda a must, unless you want something like mil tech cost reduction.
 

Zak Preston

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I think I found a perfect solution for portuguese ideas in my mod: I've added +5% discipline, +10% naval morale, +1 land leader shock and +1 land leader fire. This makes Portugal really versatile and even more importantly, unique. Still not the level of Spain, France, Burgundy or Sweden(to say nothing of Prussia), but they can at least hold their own. As a cherry on cake: players won't have an urge to form any other nation to swap NIs, esp in MP.
 

geogus

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I cannot claim to be a history expert, but I have some knowledge about Portugal and Brazil history.

Portugal was a european superpower between late XV century and first half of XVI century.

However, Portugal was never a military power, especially a land army power.

Portuguese empire was built with technology advancement ( naval technology mostly), leaving feudalism earlier, exploration, trade and diplomacy.

Besides, Portugal deployed in its colonies cunning edge technology of building forts to defend the colonies ( lots of portuguese forts still exist in Brazil and Africa)

Portugal had some good victories in naval warfare, but mostly against inferior navies, such as mamluks and indian.

Portuguese navy struggled against european navies when attacked, altough it wasnt a ride in the park. Eventually, they lost control of indian ocean.

By the other hand, the Spanish grand Armada used the portuguese navie that provided some of the best ships in the fleet, including the most powerful carrack in the world by the time.

Portugal was always diplomatic skilled, mostly to keep good terms with Spain and left alone in european wars.

Besides the special relationship between Brazil and Portugal deserves some attention. I think in late game, if portigal is at war against a european power, it should have a mechanic to allow to change its capital to Brazil and turn it from a colonial Nation a kingdom in Personal union with Portugal...
So a ravamped Portugal would have, in .y opinion:

1) bonus at trade and colonizing and exploring ( as it is)
2) some naval warfare improvement, but not much
3) forts defensivness and reduced costs
4)some diplomatic improvement, maybe diplomatic reputation bonus
5) an new mechanic for late game with colonial Brazil ( or biggest colonial Nation) to change its capital to Brazil at the cost of turn it from a colonial Nation into a kingdom in persoanl union
 

bbqftw

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Portugal is a classic victim of power creep.


Remember when castle didn't have elan light as their traditions
 

jamal bakr

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I think asking for unique units for Portugal, while it would be awesome, is probably unrealistic. However, it is undeniable that the National Ideas don't represent historic Portugal at all, there must be some military ideas to at least reach parity with the majority of other countries, and less focus on economic ideas. Plus, some of the ideas are just silly, why would the Bandeirantes give an extra merchant? And are there any other countries with repeated ideas (trade efficiency twice)?

Here were my suggestions from an earlier thread:
Code:
POR_ideas = {
   start = {
       land_morale = 0.10
       heavy_ship_power = 0.10
   }

   bonus = {
       global_trade_power = 0.20
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = POR
   }
   free = yes       #will be added at load.

   legacy_of_the_navigator = {
       range = 0.25
      navy_tradition = 0.5 #Legacy of the Navigator
   }
   afonsine_ordinances = {
      global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1 #Afonsine Ordinance
   }
   case_de_india = {
       defensiveness = 0.25
      trade_steering = 0.10 #Feitorias
   }
   land_before_faith = {
      merchants = 1
      trade_range_modifier = 0.25 #The First Globalization
   }
   open_up_the_guilds = {        
      global_spy_defence = 0.3 #Policy of Secrecy of Maritime Discoveries
   }
   royal_absolutism = {
       build_cost = -0.10
      trade_efficiency = 0.10 #Royal Absolutism
   }
   the_bandeirantes = {
       global_tariffs = 0.10
      global_colonial_growth = 10 #Encourage the Bandeirantes
   }
}
v nice ideas, I like. Trade range modifier is bad tho, change to something else.

I'm fiddling around with a Portugal run right now; by going explor-religious-quantity, converting to reformed and claiming defender of the faith+morale policy, I'm not feeling completely pathetic at least.
 

iquabakaner

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5) an new mechanic for late game with colonial Brazil ( or biggest colonial Nation) to change its capital to Brazil at the cost of turn it from a colonial Nation into a kingdom in persoanl union
This can be a decision that becomes available under certain condition when the Portuguese mainland is lost or occupied.
 

Nightwing

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I hear you. Trying to follow the Portuguese mission tree to the far east is a major challenge considering it sets you up against East African nations who are rather difficult to defeat with their 40k+ alliance troops-not much of a tech disparity once you get round the cape. Not sure how realistic it is, but it does seem like Portugal is geared more towards new world colonization when in real life they were obsessed with India.
 

Atilla 'The Hun'

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However, Portugal was never a military power, especially a land army power.

I know and that is definitely true but for gameplay reasons I think that Portugal should have atleast a military buff by either changing its current national ideas or by adding a special unit to compensate against other powers.

I hear you. Trying to follow the Portuguese mission tree to the far east is a major challenge considering it sets you up against East African nations who are rather difficult to defeat with their 40k+ alliance troops-not much of a tech disparity once you get round the cape. Not sure how realistic it is, but it does seem like Portugal is geared more towards new world colonization when in real life they were obsessed with India.

Yes, I have experienced this with my Dutch campaign. The Dutch don't have any extra military capabilities except for the +2 land fire damage which is only really useful at mid-late game stages. The 'inferior' troops still managed to outnumber me and sometimes even defeat my far more superior armies due to the fact that I was a small nation with a lower manpower capacity. Portugal has basically the same problem. A military buff could definitely help in those situations.
 

geogus

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I know and that is definitely true but for gameplay reasons I think that Portugal should have atleast a military buff by either changing its current national ideas or by adding a special unit to compensate against other powers.

Portugal was very able to defend it's colonies and built lots of very good forts in its possessions

I think increase defensenss, low fort build and manutence costs and increased attrition ( to represent a guerrilla warfare) would be very good to represent historicall Portugal land warfare.

For instance a Lisbon fort, plus tower of Belém modifier + defensivness from ideas+ attrition from ideas + full defensive idea would make it a thought spot to siege
 

geogus

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This can be a decision that becomes available under certain condition when the Portuguese mainland is lost or occupied.


I imagined something like that

It would be a fun way to change to a new Nation in ironman.

Event ideia

the royal family retreats overseas to colonial Brazil
Requirements: has Brazil as colony, in war with a european great power, negative war score


Portugal would get a prestige penalty and -1 stability.
Portugal looses colonial Brazil.
Creates empire of Brazil, senior of Personal union with Portugal.
Brazil gets some troops and ships.
Brazil gets -2 war exaustion.
Brazil gets control of all Portugal colonial Nations and trade companies
Current war and warscore changes accordingly. Brazil is the leader of alliance and new war score ( for instance, if Lisbon was under ocupation loses the malus occupied capital)

10 years after the end of war, if in peace, a dillema to restore portugal to europe ( and player becomes Portugal again) and reduce Brazil to colonial status or remain the new status quo as Brazil as head of a PU ( playing as Brazil)

First option triggers Brazil war of independence.
Second option portugal remains as junior of a PU with Brazil and a revolution or revolt starts in Portugal
 
Last edited:

evilcat

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Construction bonus is somehow useful, if you are planning to build manufactures, or mass shipyards.
Trade efficiency bonuses could be bundled. One time +15% is fair enought.
That leaves one spot for something else, could be morale related for land and navy.
 

schondetta

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Im going to have to protest the discipline part. Listen we can all make cases for nations having military modifier but if we keep hannding out discipile to all these tags than it doesn't really mean anything.it loses its value when your enemies have the same thing all the time
 

Afonso de Albuquerque

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v nice ideas, I like. Trade range modifier is bad tho, change to something else.

I'm fiddling around with a Portugal run right now; by going explor-religious-quantity, converting to reformed and claiming defender of the faith+morale policy, I'm not feeling completely pathetic at least.
Yeah, the ideas I went with are definitely not A-tier, to be cautious I threw in a few underwhelming ideas to keep it still a bit underpowered. I came up with them in a thread where people were accusing anyone who suggested Portugal should get any military ideas at all of being biased ultra-nationalists...

However, Portugal was never a military power, especially a land army power.
Yes, but let's also not go in the other direction and give Portugal nothing at all when nearly every other tag has some military modifier. It was through land battles, not naval battles, that Portugal was able to, for example, defeat several invasion attempts by Spain and/or France, expel the Dutch from Brasil (you probably know this part better than me :p ) and Angola, conquer Goa, Ceylon, Malacca, etc. (usually extremely outnumbered). There were Portuguese mercenaries fighting for Ethiopia, Bengal, Ayutthaya, Mughals, Japan, etc. Nearly everyone of those I mentioned get some military bonus, often huge ones. Portugal has nothing at land or at sea. In my ideas I suggested giving land morale (same as Aragon, less than Castile/Spain) and defensiveness, and heavy ship CA (same as Spain or England) and naval tradition. Nothing on discipline, manpower, ICA, naval force limit, naval morale, etc. so I really think it is still perfectly balanced and historical.

I imagined something like that

It would be a fun way to change to a new Nation in ironman.

Event ideia

the royal family retreats overseas to colonial Brazil
Requirements: has Brazil as colony, in war with a european great power, negative war score


Portugal would get a prestige penalty and -1 stability.
Portugal looses colonial Brazil.
Creates empire of Brazil, senior of Personal union with Portugal.
Brazil gets some troops and ships.
Brazil gets -2 war exaustion.
Brazil gets control of all Portugal colonial Nations and trade companies
Current war and warscore changes accordingly. Brazil is the leader of alliance and new war score ( for instance, if Lisbon was under ocupation loses the malus occupied capital)

10 years after the end of war, if in peace, a dillema to restore portugal to europe ( and player becomes Portugal again) and reduce Brazil to colonial status or remain the new status quo as Brazil as head of a PU ( playing as Brazil)

First option triggers Brazil war of independence.
Second option portugal remains as junior of a PU with Brazil and a revolution or revolt starts in Portugal
That is a really cool idea! Maybe it shouldn't be hard-coded to be Brazil only but instead the biggest Portuguese colonial nation? It would be quite fun to be able to shift to a colonial nation without using game-y mechanics or "breaking immersion" so to say.
 

Laurent1944

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Historical Portugal did not conquer big parts of land in Africa and India, but rather concentrate on important trade spots. What they wanted was to control the trade, not the land, so being trade oriented seems not so strange to me in EU4. As for Bandeirantes, replace the extra merchant by an extra colonist could be a good idea, so Brazil could be occupied faster.
 

jamal bakr

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Well, that is a good argument not to give them coring cost reductions or something like that :p. They won rather impressive battles against many powers in their conquest of these trade points; no one is saying they should be Prussia-West, just that they shouldn't melt like wet toilet paper in front of any of their other regional powers.

Even with some military idea buffs, Portugal will still be capped just because of its low development, low force limit, and unpleasant expansion opportunities in N. Africa. Making them have the worst military is just overkill.