Portuguese Fifth Empire Focus Should be in the Monarchist Path, not the Fascist.

[Puppy0]

Hello there. I recently have been enlightened by the Portuguese Fifth Empire concept. I am no expert and Portuguese here are encouraged to correct me however my understanding is that the Fifth Empire concept is inextricably linked to the Return of the Hidden One. The Hidden One was a Portuguese monarch that disappeared in a battle against Morocco in the 16th century, leading to the personal union with Spain. Furthermore the Fifth empire concept is highly esoteric and delves deep into Christian mysticism. Furthermore it is inherently anti-revolutionary, since although it portrays a vision of a world led by Portugal, it is a divinely inspired leadership whose only purpose is to bring the Millennial Kingdom.

For these reasons I don't think this focus fits in a Estado Novo pseudo Fascist regime. The only tangential similarity is a vague idea of territorial conquest, however the Fifth Empire was far more about spiritual conquest than Material. Assuming a Focus called Fifth empire was added to the monarchist path, what would we call the former focus in the non-axis fascist path?

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[guprad]

I don't know much about Portuguese history but I don't see a problem in anything you state being contrary to fascist aims. I think the first question is to ask however what is fascism, and what is fascist thought? This is actually a question I have pondered many times before and have wondered about this question, but thankfully we have Mario Palmeri to provide us the answer. In his book The Philosophy of Fascism he states: "He who thinks of Fascism and its worth thinks, primarily and above all, of what Fascism stands for in the realm of the spirit; of its contribution to man’s spiritual heritage." In this very quote we see fascism as a spiritual philosophy, and Palmeri continues to enlighten the meaning of fascist thought in this quote:

"Fascism is an eminently idealistic and, more specifically, an anti-materialistic and anti-individualistic philosophy of life. These characteristics are clearly expressed by the recognition of the eternal value of the spiritual essence of man and of the transitory aspect of his earthly being; by the recognition of the absolute worth of the individual in the realm of the Spirit and of the relative worth of the individual in the realm of Nature; by the recognition of the transcendent significance of the historical process and of the fundamental continuity of human history; by the recognition of the supreme role played in the life of mankind by those social formations called Family and Nation, and of the small importance of the role played by the single individual; by the recognition of the influence of Religion on human life, and of the supremacy in this life of Ethics over Economics, of Art over Business, of Poetry over Science, of Intuition and Inspiration over Experience and Method; by the recognition of the supremely ethical nature of the State, and of the function of the State as concrete expression in the realm of time and space of the timeless idea of the nation; by the recognition of the truth that mankind needs an aristocracy of leaders led, in turn, by national heroes; of the need that the doctrine of the Rights of Man; of the fact that Man lives not by bread alone but also, and mainly, of beliefs; and, finally, of the truth that all forms of personal freedom pale in contrast to that form of Liberty which only has meaning and truly matters: the Liberty of the Spirit."

In that quote Palmeri states quite clearly that fascism rejects materialism and individualism, therefore the fact that what you stated about the Fifth Empire being inherently spiritual instead of material is exactly what fascism is, fascism rejects materialism. In your quote about mysticism, fascism too seeks to bring it about, Palmeri's quote:

"And, yet, there has never been a more forceful appeal made to the best in man than the appeal made by Christianity. The idealism born of it, and constituting in a way its main characteristic feature, spoke always directly to the Soul and through the Soul. It spoke of a world of values which were not of this earth and which far transcended everything which the earth could offer. It spoke of another life, more alluring than the present earthly one, a life unseen by mortal eyes, but, nevertheless, far more vivid than any other thing perceived. It spoke, finally, of the existence of another form of reality, unknown to man in his ordinary state, but of which he could get fleeting glimpses in his rare moments of mystic consciousness; and, speaking of this reality as the only reality, it denounced the one apprehended by the mind through the intermediary of the experience of the senses, as a most illusory and deceiving one."

Palmeri later stated that this was the message delivered by the religious idealism born of Christianity, and fascism seeks to bring about this type of idealism but a new type of idealism spoken by Palmeri: "Such must the distinguishing features of the new Idealism be; such indeed are the distinguishing features of Fascist Idealism."

Fascism uses myth and believes firmly that man is made of soul and spirit and is not made of material, to denote man to mere material is something fascists find vehement about and rejects it with passion.

Gentile in his book the Origins and Doctrine of Fascism states:
"The Italian Fascist state- for reasons already given- one with the mass of Italians, is either not religious or it is Roman Catholic. It cannot be irreligious, because the absolute value and authority it confers on itself would be incomprehensible without a relationship to the divine absolute."

In the quote above Fascism does not reject the divine instead it sees a relationship to the divine absolute as something that is necessary to fascism, so when you said: it is a divinely inspired leadership whose only purpose is to bring the Millennial Kingdom, I see no such conflict with fascism when fascism too also incorporates a relationship to the divine. It also incorporates mysticism and seeks to bring this about in a new idealism that calls to the men of today.

Hopefully you find this interesting . And if you have any other questions on fascist ideology please feel free to talk to me .

Online source of Origin and Doctrine of Fascism by Gentile: https://archive.org/details/OriginsAndDoctrineOfFascismGiovanniGentile/page/n41/mode/2up
Online source of The Philosophy of Fascism by Palmeri: http://thephilosophyoffascism.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-philosophy-of-fascism-by-mario.html

 

[Spelaren]

As fifth empire Portugal, what do i even do? What are some prime targets to conquer? Can't take over the south american countries because America guarantees them. Guangxhi would be a prime target with their steel and manpower.

 

[Puppy0]

Thanks very much for the interesting and informational reply.

you have certainly convincingly connected fascism to the esoteric and spiritual. I do however still wonder about how fiercely monarchal the Fifth Empire concept is, being centred around a “king under the mountain” type trope returning. I still think that if we are choosing between the two, between a fascist path and a monarchist one, the monarchist one should have two branches, one that is more the recently departed constitutional monarchy and one for an older more traditionalist Fifth Empire concept. I just find the whole thing strange in specifically the Estado Novo fascist path.

 

[guprad]

Thanks very much for the interesting and informational reply.

you have certainly convincingly connected fascism to the esoteric and spiritual. I do however still wonder about how fiercely monarchal the Fifth Empire concept is, being centred around a “king under the mountain” type trope returning. I still think that if we are choosing between the two, between a fascist path and a monarchist one, the monarchist one should have two branches, one that is more the recently departed constitutional monarchy and one for an older more traditionalist Fifth Empire concept. I just find the whole thing strange in specifically the Estado Novo fascist path.

Not a bad idea but fascist regimes can also be monarchies like Italy, maybe it can be both in the monarchy branch and the fascist branch?

 

[klinkvon13]

It seems a bit lazy to consider that notions of spirituality in fascism is enough to connect the Fifth empire concept as you described it and fascism.

What made fascism standing out is not its spirituality, it is about wearing black shirts and making opponents drinking oil.
Mussolini reading Arthur de Gobineau isn't quite compatible with the Bible.

So, ok, some european entities of that time considered fascist had deep christian roots
(from France to Romania, etc). But many historians expressed already that describing them as fascist is convenient but mostly inexact (for instance Jean-Pierre Azéma or Robert Paxton regarding « l'Etat français ») .

Without getting to deep in details, reading only the following makes this connection quite odd.

The third cycle of "Mensagem", called O Encoberto ("The Hidden One") refers to Fernando Pessoa's vision of a future world of peace and understanding, the Fifth Empire, which will come about through a Portuguese of mystical origin to which he refers by a number of names including "The Hidden One", "The King" or "King Sebastian". The Hidden One represents the fulfillment of the destiny of mankind, designed by God since before Time, and, at the same time, the accomplishment of Portugal which, in Pessoa's vision is the chosen nation, the one that will bear the New Messiah and lead the way towards the Fifth Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Empire

And, in general, the whole notion of this Fifth Empire being a followup of Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, Christianity and Anglo-Sexon hegemon for Pessoa, of Assyro-Caldeans, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans for Vieira, is not so consistent with fascism that focused on defining a population and an identity against the others.


So, ok, I have no specific issue about Paradox being very imaginative to define this Novo Estado, to give it a story, some flesh. Let's say they used this Fifth Empire notion to build something else about it, fascist why not.
But, really, outside of the scope of the game, it is not enough to link this historical real Fifth Empire notion to facism (and maybe that's why Paradox did not use Quinto Império to name it).

 

[guprad]

It seems a bit lazy to consider that notions of spirituality in fascism is enough to connect the Fifth empire concept as you described it and fascism.

What made fascism standing out is not its spirituality, it is about wearing black shirts and making opponents drinking oil.
Mussolini reading Arthur de Gobineau isn't quite compatible with the Bible.

So, ok, some european entities of that time considered fascist had deep christian roots
(from France to Romania, etc). But many historians expressed already that describing them as fascist is convenient but mostly inexact (for instance Jean-Pierre Azéma or Robert Paxton regarding « l'Etat français ») .

Without getting to deep in details, reading only the following makes this connection quite odd.

The third cycle of "Mensagem", called O Encoberto ("The Hidden One") refers to Fernando Pessoa's vision of a future world of peace and understanding, the Fifth Empire, which will come about through a Portuguese of mystical origin to which he refers by a number of names including "The Hidden One", "The King" or "King Sebastian". The Hidden One represents the fulfillment of the destiny of mankind, designed by God since before Time, and, at the same time, the accomplishment of Portugal which, in Pessoa's vision is the chosen nation, the one that will bear the New Messiah and lead the way towards the Fifth Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Empire

And, in general, the whole notion of this Fifth Empire being a followup of Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, Christianity and Anglo-Sexon hegemon for Pessoa, of Assyro-Caldeans, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans for Vieira, is not so consistent with fascism that focused on defining a population and an identity against the others.


So, ok, I have no specific issue about Paradox being very imaginative to define this Novo Estado, to give it a story, some flesh. Let's say they used this Fifth Empire notion to build something else about it, fascist why not.
But, really, outside of the scope of the game, it is not enough to link this historical real Fifth Empire notion to facism (and maybe that's why Paradox did not use Quinto Império to name it).

Would you consider Corneliu Zelea Codreanu a fascist? He was the leader of the Romanian Iron Guard, and deeply Christian. Also what makes fascism standing out is it's spirituality, fascism is an ideology unlike any other because it's one of the only ones to consider spirituality so deeply and so fervently, what you wrote there the Hidden One represents the fulfillment of the destiny of mankind, it seems similar to this quote by Palmeri in the Philosophy of Fascism:

"Striking at the root of the evil which poisons the very springs of his being, Fascism tells man that it is high time for him to set himself definitely above, outside and against Nature. Cutting abruptly the Gordian knot which keeps him a slave of his physiological needs and material hindrances, Fascism tells Man: “Arise, at last, come into thine own, reach the full stature of thy being, fulfill thy mission in the world, be the master of thing own destiny.”

Fascism states that every man must manifest their own destiny to fulfill your true potential. Any attempt to separate fascism from spirituality is impossible and futile task. It will be in essence no longer fascist. Fascism speaks quite commonly of god in this quote by Palmeri:

"The Fascist way of life is thus life as it ought to be lived: a life, that is, of devotion to those Ideals which form the very substance of the world of the Spirit, that world of timeless and absolute values which partakes of the essence of God and to which belongs the true essence of Man."

So a destiny you manifest yourself which is also results from a devotion from ideals which is part of man and god? Seems eerily similar to fulfillment of the destiny designed by god to me.

It is incorrect to state what made fascism standing out is not its spirituality when that is exactly what it is and this book and the book by Gentile confirms it. I don't know where you get your view of fascism is about wearing black shirts and making your opponets to drink oil, but that is overall an incorrect view. Can you give me a source about that though?

However I do admit that spirituality is not the only factor in deciding whether a nation or an idea is fascist or not. What is the Fifth Empire view on heroism? Do they support self sacrifice? Heroism like fascism does? Palmeri states in his book:

"It is this belief of Fascism in the essential spirituality of the nature of man; it is its recognition of the invisible tie which binds together the destinies of all mortal beings; it is its faith in a world of values of far greater import than the values of the sensual life; it is its call to a regeneration of the race and to the amalgamation of the people of each country into a living unity; it is its purpose to make of the State – that is of the highest form of political organization known to man – the visible, tangible expression of the nation; it is its aim to set the welfare of the individual, to make of the enrichment of the life of the nation the motive power of the life of the citizen; and it is, finally, its ambition to place ideals above wants, sacrifices above desires, heroism, martyrdom and death above cowardice, safety and well-being, what definitely and resolutely sets Fascism as the antithesis and the nemesis of Individualism."

I also said in my previous comment that nothing what OP said contradicts fascism not that it has to be fascist.

 

[klinkvon13]

"Would you consider Corneliu Zelea Codreanu a fascist? He was the leader of the Romanian Iron Guard, and deeply Christian. Also what makes fascism standing out is it's spirituality, fascism is an ideology unlike any other because it's one of the only ones to consider spirituality so deeply and so fervently, what you wrote there the Hidden One represents the fulfillment of the destiny of mankind, it seems similar to this quote by Palmeri in the Philosophy of Fascism:"

I read your previous post. I understand you are deeply touched by this spiritual notion of fascism especially as described by this Mario Palmeri (I must admit not knowing who he is - it is Vincenzo Mario Palmieri, the medecine doctor involved in the Katyn Commission, accused post-war of fascist-sympathies even though it might unfair and orchestrated by communist in response to his role in Katyn Commission, we talk about?).
I do not disagree about the presence of some mystical thought in facism.

But not fascism is not remembered for being a mystical esotherical path. That's not the main item, that not the unique item.

Black shirt, opponents drinking oil, more like it.

Or according to Mussolini « everything in the state, nothing against the State, nothing outside the state », to Maurras « What in fact is Fascism? A socialism emancipated from democracy ».

We can followup by historian like Emilio Gentile, Zeev Sternhell, John Lukacs, Ernst Nolte, Robert Paxton.

I also said in my previous comment that nothing what OP said contradicts fascism not that it has to be fascist.

But yes it does. This whole spirtuality topic does not change the rest. As I wrote in my previous post, Fifth Empire being a followup of Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, Christianity and Anglo-Sexon hegemon for Pessoa, of Assyro-Caldeans, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans for Vieira, is not so consistent with fascism that focused on defining a population and an identity against the others.

It is not enough to consider on aspect similar (even though far fetched in some regards) and ignore all the rest that is completely unrelated.

Otherwise you can play the same game and defining nazism as some pagan revival, put Wagner as head of state of something, completely disregarding all the others things that nazism is.

Not to quote myself once again, I understand that Paradox thought funny to reuse this concept of Fifth Empire in this context to give some flesh to their Estado Novo. But it is very good that they named it differently, otherwise it would be as insulting to António Vieira and Fernando Pessoa to associate their work with some modern fascist, as it would be stupid to associate Wagner to nazism as if there is any reason to think he would have enjoy genocide.

 

[guprad]

But yes it does. This whole spirtuality topic does not change the rest. As I wrote in my previous post, Fifth Empire being a followup of Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, Christianity and Anglo-Sexon hegemon for Pessoa, of Assyro-Caldeans, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans for Vieira, is not so consistent with fascism that focused on defining a population and an identity against the others.

Ah okay sorry I missed that part, I mean fascism does indeed consider itself the successor of the Roman Empire (Italian fascism does at least, not German fascism), but yes for the others fascism does not consider, also what about your post when you stated this:

So, ok, some european entities of that time considered fascist had deep christian roots
(from France to Romania, etc). But many historians expressed already that describing them as fascist is convenient but mostly inexact (for instance Jean-Pierre Azéma or Robert Paxton regarding « l'Etat français ») .

Codreanu is most definitely a fascist and the leader of the Iron Guard.

Also you are right that fascism is not remembered for it's spirituality however that may be because that not many people actually know and have read any works of fascist thinkers and instead takes what society normally says about them because it supports individualism and fascism is anti-individualistic, it is the anti-thesis of the current society so it will not be liked. I would say that the common interpretation of fascism is wrong because the fascist thinkers definitely thought that spirituality is so important that they wrote books describing it. I mean people know of the presence of the Communist Manifesto but for some reason they don't know of the Philosophy of Fascism by Mario Palmeri and The Origin and Doctrine of Fascism by Giovanni Gentile. In fact I would say that the spirituality is unique and important because neither Capitalism nor Communism considers spirituality in it's ideologies, some people fail to consider the spiritual and mystical shroud of fascism and thus equate fascism = communism by the account that Hitler = Stalin which is a really weird and completely incorrect point of view.

Then again for the Fifth Empire concept just because there are some differences does not mean that it is not fascist. There are definitely differences between Italian Fascism and German Fascism (which is more racial than the Italian version), which is also different from Romanian fascism which is centered on Christianity, and Britain fascism. Because of such astounding differences in every single fascist movement I asked for the Fifth Empire conception of heroism, how exactly do they view it? Does the Fifth Empire seek to unify all Portuguese into something greater then itself?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

It should be a shared branch, available both for Fascists AND Monarchists.

In general, Focus trees need more shared branches that can be used by 2 ideologies.

 

[guprad]

It should be a shared branch, available both for Fascists AND Monarchists.

In general, Focus trees need more shared branches that can be used by 2 ideologies.

I agree that's actually a good idea.

 

[Puppy0]

It should be a shared branch, available both for Fascists AND Monarchists.

In general, Focus trees need more shared branches that can be used by 2 ideologies.

Yes i was just considering this the other day.

one could have a fascist over branch, where you can either go down a more traditional historical estado novo, or down a uniquely fascist fifth empire. Then have a monarchist over branch where one can either go down a constitutionalist path or the shared fifth empire one.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

How this could be implemented:
Alternate requirements of The Fifth Empire focus:
- the current ones (Camisas Azuis focus and ruling party is Fascist)
- NEW: OR Mapa Cor-de-Rosa focus and ruling party is Causa Monárquica.

that would be simple fix without changin the focus tree much.

Obviously more extensive changes are thinkable, but the devs are unlikely to change a new focus tree soon.