Portugal should be renamed Iberia when the lusitanian empire mission is completed

[Duarte]

With the new name change mechanic on the block, I think it would be ideal to add it to portugal both to add the long time requests for an Iberia tag, but also due to the "take that!" nature of the name change, being a mirror of castille and aragon adopting the title "Spain"

 

[Sete]

Who says it doesn't?

But again, I love how you quickly go from 'i have actual sources' to 'eh who cares about historical plausibility, atlantis is in the game'. Moving goalposts much?

In the end of the day I just care a great deal more about the history of Portugal and would rather not a Golden Century esque fiasco when it comes to ignorance of its history. I was incensed when they added english minority expulsion to the portuguese and the castillians and would rather not see further ruination.

If Portugal conquers the peninsula known at the time as Hispania and its 'tag' changes, that's called 'Forming the Spanish Nation militarily'. Been in-game since day one. Wanting a new flag with bigger portugal shield and a new name that is different from Spain is just modern day nationalism projecting itself onto the past, ignoring the glory and the actual people who lived at the time.

Buddy, your nationalistic rants tire me.

My Lusitania sugestion came from the fact that the Portuguese were referred as lusitanians by the Castillians, and the fact that the mission is called lusitanian Empire.
My goalposts did not move, it's there, you are the one dancing around it with excuses it's not "realistic" when I'm still waiting for your sources on the Kingdom of God.

Agai you care a great deal about the history of Portugal, yet I have yet to see all your threads about the ahistorical Portuguese National ideas, and actual feedback to make it more historical.

Wanting a new flag, with the proper heradly just makes sense. Why would I form Spain with Portugal and have Leon and Castille symbols?

Check the Iberian Union coat of Arms. I see Portugal there.

 

[Sete]

Philip of Spain sovereign of the Union of all kingdoms of Hispania, including Portugal. Yes.

So, Portugal uniting the peninsula is really just called Spain. Most likely keeping the portuguese ideas for added uniqueness.

So why Portugal uniting all the kingdoms of hispania in game, and forming "Spain" does not have its symbol? Just that.
Add the tag and flag restrictions that the game has, and you will see where I'm coming from.

 

[Delterius]

from the fact that the Portuguese were referred as lusitanians by the Castillians

[citation needed]

You found one guy using the word lusitanian. Again, that is just literary affectation. It is the convention in language to vary adjectives. Doesn't mean the portuguese called themselves lusitanians, that the portuguese were referred to as lusitanians in everyday conversation, that the crown of portugal ever considered renaming itself lusitania or anything else. Hence why I asked you for official sources proving as much and you couldn't provide any.

Wanting a new flag, with the proper heradly just makes sense.

Never argued with the flag. I have always argued with the portuguese erasing the last thousand years of history and germanic tribes moving around, calling themselves 'Lusitania' and renaming the peninsula 'Iberia'.

A Spain with a secondary flag that includes the portuguese shield in the fashion of the Union was never the intent behind this discussion or this thread.

 

[Sete]

[citation needed]

You found one guy using the word lusitania. Doesn't mean the portuguese called themselves lusitanians, that the portuguese were referred to as lusitanians in everyday conversation or anything else.

Never argued with the flag. I have always argued with the portuguese erasing the last thousand years of history and germanic tribes moving around, calling themselves 'Lusitania' and renaming the peninsula 'Iberia'.

"One guy" that " was the most influential Spanish humanist of his era."

I have no idea what you are talking about on the Germanic tribes, some context would be appreciated.

The part of them being erased, I'm fully aware of the Germanic tribes migration history.

 

[Talamare]

Iberia is a XIXth century meme invented by a french geographer and propagated by the french state in its ambitions to create a 'latin coprosperity sphere' across the americas and europe. As with so many things it is then appropriated by nationalists who like to project their behavior on people from centuries before the nation state was ever a thing. The reason Hispania was ever picked as the name for a realm whose ambition is to integrate the peninsula, and which succeeded for the most part, is simply because 'Hispania' was the common name for the peninsula for nearly 2000 years. Not 'Iberia'.

A Portugal that comes to encompass the peninsula via war, inheritance or whatever would most likely keep the name Portugal and/or be nicknamed the kingdom of the hispanic peninsula. Because that is what it would be. Assuming it would be a composite monarchy of the peninsula's different constituent kingdoms, it would take their flags and at their to its emblem, looking very much like the 'iberian' union's.

Why are you using XIX? Just type 19, it's literally less characters.
Also Iberia was invented in the 19th Century? what?
It was ORIGINALLY called Iberia, then changed to Hispania in the late roman era.

 

[navaluiki]

Also Iberia was invented in the 19th Century? what?
It was ORIGINALLY called Iberia, then changed to Hispania in the late roman era.

The word "Iberia" was coined by Ancient Greeks. However, "Hispania" (and variations of that word like "Spain") was used during the Middle Ages, while "Iberia" wasn't really used until the 18th/19th Century, when the country of Spain had finally "usurped" the term "Spain" for centuries. What was invented in the 19th Century was the term "Iberian Peninsula".

Why are you using XIX? Just type 19, it's literally less characters.

That's how the centuries are called in several languages, perhaps his mother tongue is one of them.

 

[Sete]

Either way, the devs dont care about Portugal.

 

[Froonk]

Either way, the devs dont care about Portugal.

Portugal has one of the most expansive mission trees and unique start with an explorer, they also get a unique naval doctrine.

 

[Sete]

Portugal has one of the most expansive mission trees and unique start with an explorer, they also get a unique naval doctrine.

In the way that it does not play like it historically should.

Naval Doctrine is in fact one of the few things they got right.

Portugal mission tree is just a railroad of what they historically did (bar some minor exceptions like the mission discussed on this thread, which they were close to achieve non the less.)

Navaluiki for example gave fantastic feedback that was just ignored, and he wasn't only one.

Offering feedback about Portugal is like talking to a brick wall.

(And Norway starts with explorers for free)

 

[Froonk]

In the way that it does not play like it historically should.

Naval Doctrine is in fact one of the few things they got right.

Portugal mission tree is just a railroad of what they historically did (bar some minor exceptions like the mission discussed on this thread, which they were close to achieve non the less.)

That's how mission trees are generally. Mission trees gotten in emperor are the exception and even Austria has less missions than Portugal in total. If anything some of the newer mission trees are quite bad. Portugal currently has more unique mechanics than states like France, Ottomans, Russia etc. while being equivalent with UK and Castile in the general region. Portugal is in top 5 in terms of amount of unique missions and that it doesn't get renamed to Lusitinian Empire because a mission is called that way is not an acceptable standard to judge whether devs don't care about Portugal. As far as I know absolutely nobody gets a new tag/name because of a mission tree and the names like that are flavour and aspirations.

If you consider Portugal gets a unique doctrine (and probably the most useful one at that too) on top of Iberian ones it is ahead of Castile too aside from events and only falls behind some absolute top tier states like Austria. It is also debatable and whether Austria getting missions to colonise, India, China and Australia is even good design. Portugal also has an age ability which automatically puts it in another level. That devs don't care about Portugal because the flag of Spain doesn't get Portuguese flag embedded in the middle if Portugal forms it is quite absurd. If you want to see bad mission trees on states that should be main ones in EU4 timeframe look at Ottoman and Russian ones. Ottomans don't even get missions for some of the stuff they have done in Indian ocean let alone getting too little alternative history missions.

 

[Sete]

Of you think I say that the devs dont care about Portugal because of a flag, you are utterly wrong.

Portugal does not play as it historically should.

For example imagine playing a game with Sparta and their bonus is +10% slaves due to the helots while ignoring their (often romanticized) military prowess.

Or Athen with 10% diplomacy while ignoring their navy power.

This is the case with Portugal.

They focused way too much on trade as a trade faction and ignored their religious and military/naval aspects.

And I'm not going to discuss the map and provinces because better people than me already did a fantastic job on it.

Do you know that Portugal has the oldest acting navy in the world dating back to 1317.

Do they have Naval Tradition?
No they have trade efficiency, which to this day I have no idea why.

Did you know that 50% of the profit of the spice trade ended up in the low countries?

Trade efficiency makes no sense.

Just as an example.

And Portugal gets a powerfull doctrine with arguably one of the worst military in the game.

Read my feedback threads especially about NI amd hopefully you will see where I come from.

 

[Froonk]

Of you think I say that the devs dont care about Portugal because of a flag, you are utterly wrong.

Portugal does not play as it historically should.

For example imagine playing a game with Sparta and their bonus is +10% slaves due to the helots while ignoring their (often romanticized) military prowess.

Or Athen with 10% diplomacy while ignoring their navy power.

This is the case with Portugal.

They focused way too much on trade as a trade faction and ignored their religious and military/naval aspects.

And I'm not going to discuss the map and provinces because better people than me already did a fantastic job on it.

Do you know that Portugal has the oldest acting navy in the world dating back to 1317.

Do they have Naval Tradition?
No they have trade efficiency, which to this day I have no idea why.

Did you know that 50% of the profit of the spice trade ended up in the low countries?

Trade efficiency makes no sense.

Just as an example.

And Portugal gets a powerfull doctrine with arguably one of the worst military in the game.

Read my feedback threads especially about NI amd hopefully you will see where I come from.

Naval tradition is so easy to gain with just light ships protecting trade and doing privateering missions. They also have the second strongest bonus to naval combat in current version of naval combat with less morale loss and increased disengagement (the best bonus being engagement width which If I remember correctly no national idea gives). They get artillery combat ability and fort defence which are both very rare and powerful. Building and defending forts was a speciality of the Portuguese anyway and one of the reasons they managed to hold onto so much territory in Indian ocean. They also have unique naval doctrine to represent their uniquely skilled navy, especially for taking and defending forts and its role in first half of the time period.

However sure, Portuguese had exceptional navy especially in the first half of time frame so the goods produced modifier could changed with naval tradition bonus and naval leader bonus. I also don't understand why you think even more naval combat bonuses would be helpful. Regarding trade issue, global trade power and ability to take land and settle in Indian ocean early helps get trade profits back to Portugal. When you get CoTs and protect trade in Ivory coast and Malacca (as Portuguese did historically) then trade efficiency can be thought as representing the merchant princes of Portugal deriving most profit possible. Trade efficiency doesn't impact where the trade goes, it wouldn't have prevented half of spice trade going to low countries because it only increased amount of profit you get from trade you are already collecting. So if 50 ducats worth of trade is collected by Portugal and 50 ducats goes to Low countries, 10% trade efficiency would mean Portugal collects 55 ducats from that trade. Also yes it was this trade and its profits that helped Portugal most. Turning Portugal into another small country with just combat bonuses would be so boring, why does it seem absolute troop quality is the most important bonus in the game for people?

 

[Sete]

That can be applied for every nation with naval tradition, and yet it would be fitting if it replaced trade efficiency.

Combat ability and fort defence should be the second or third idea, not the last one, that's my only issue with the idea.

Spice going to low countries was just to prove my point that trade efficiency is not a feasible tradition.

 

[Froonk]

Yes, I mean sure it's not perfect idea group but I think it's fairly unique and representative aside from few kinks. All idea groups for nations could be improved in some ways but I think Portuguese ones are still high up there especially in consideration with all the other mechanical flavour they get, that the devs don't care about Portugal is just overreaction. Something like a unique naval doctrine, explorer at the start or an age power is much more distinguishing than national ideas.

Also trade efficiency is not trade power, it increases the income you gain from present trade, it doesn't affect the trade nodes in any way. It doesn't reduce other states' income. Portugal had merchant princes didn't it? Even in memoirs of Mendes Pinto, very much the best recorded Portuguese sailor archetype, he says all he wanted was to earn gold.

 

[Sete]

That's just it, it could be better with some small changes.

I think every sailor in the history of mankind wanted to earn some gold

 

[Talamare]

Why Lusitania? If Portugal is called that way, it is because its territory is similar to the former Roman province. If the territory held by Portugal had been the entire (or at least most) of the Iberian Peninsula, by that logic its name would have been Hispania (or basically Spain, which was the same before the creation of the modern country of Spain).

That said, the "Spain" present in EU4 is based on the historical one, so it doesn't really make much sense that Portugal can form it. If Portugal takes the entire Peninsula during the game, I don't think its name should change.

Well, no
Lusitania was the original name of the people that belong in the area
Hispania was Roman's forced name onto the area (probably, this is kinda disputed)

So, you're saying that Portuguese would name themselves Hispania or Spain in honor of the Romans
We're saying they would do Lusitania in honor of the Lusitanian's

Why would ours make more sense?
Because Portuguese is still considered to this day to be Lusophones

Even in modern day, the Portuguese are acknowledging Lusitania.

 

[navaluiki]

Well, no
Lusitania was the original name of the people that belong in the area
Hispania was Roman's forced name onto the area (probably, this is kinda disputed)

So, you're saying that Portuguese would name themselves Hispania or Spain in honor of the Romans
We're saying they would do Lusitania in honor of the Lusitanian's

Why would ours make more sense?
Because Portuguese is still considered to this day to be Lusophones

Even in modern day, the Portuguese are acknowledging Lusitania.

The Lusitanians only lived in a small portion of the Roman province of Lusitania, the fact that Portugal uses the term Lusitania is a clear example of reusing a Roman geographical term to refer to a later region, like Hispania (Spain) for the Castillian-Aragonese Union, Helvetia for Switzerland, Gaul for France, Britannia for Great Britain/UK and many others. So, it's clear reference to the Romans, since Lusitania was also forced by Romans onto the western part of the Iberian Peninsula.
The "to this day" argument is not really relevant here since we're taking about an alternate relaty that diverged many many centuries ago, before the difference between Spain , Hispania and Iberia was established. If Portugal had conquered the whole Iberian Peninsula, then Portugal would acknowledge Hispania. Similarly, if Castille and Aragon had never united, the term "Spain" would be vacant now, much like Iberia is.

Anyway, why changing the name to Lusitania after annexing the Peninsula? It would have encompassed that territory long before that point. I don't see any kind of correlation between those two things, formable nations or name changes should come after completing an objective. Why would be "Lusitania" locked until having conquered a far larger territory? You can form Great Britain after having control over a large part of said island, not all of Western Europe, for example.