Portugal should be renamed Iberia when the lusitanian empire mission is completed

[Duarte]

With the new name change mechanic on the block, I think it would be ideal to add it to portugal both to add the long time requests for an Iberia tag, but also due to the "take that!" nature of the name change, being a mirror of castille and aragon adopting the title "Spain"

 

[navaluiki]

Portugal forming Spain seems pretty unrealistic, as in they wouldn't use that name.
It would more likely be called Iberia or Lusitania, or even Portugalia or Galicia.

Why Lusitania? If Portugal is called that way, it is because its territory is similar to the former Roman province. If the territory held by Portugal had been the entire (or at least most) of the Iberian Peninsula, by that logic its name would have been Hispania (or basically Spain, which was the same before the creation of the modern country of Spain).

That said, the "Spain" present in EU4 is based on the historical one, so it doesn't really make much sense that Portugal can form it. If Portugal takes the entire Peninsula during the game, I don't think its name should change.

 

[Pbhuh]

Why Lusitania? If Portugal is called that way, it is because its territory is similar to the former Roman province. If the territory held by Portugal had been the entire (or at least most) of the Iberian Peninsula, by that logic its name would have been Hispania (or basically Spain, which was the same before the creation of the modern country of Spain).

That said, the "Spain" present in EU4 is based on the historical one, so it doesn't really make much sense that Portugal can form it. If Portugal takes the entire Peninsula during the game, I don't think its name should change.

Maybe, but we have to remember there was a chance of the union going to Portugal-Castille and not Aragon-Castille. Lusitania is a part of Iberia which includes more of Leon-Portugal. Portuggalia like the other guy said is only Portugal and Galicia and galicia is the area in spain, which ones included Portugal.

Spain(Hispania) and Iberia are best names for the entire continent.

 

[Vaximillian]

Spain is Hispania is Iberia. No need to multiply entities beyond necessity.

 

[navaluiki]

Maybe, but we have to remember there was a chance of the union going to Portugal-Castille and not Aragon-Castille. Lusitania is a part of Iberia which includes more of Leon-Portugal. Portuggalia like the other guy said is only Portugal and Galicia and galicia is the area in spain, which ones included Portugal.

Spain(Hispania) and Iberia are best names for the entire continent.

Iberia is ok, but a bit anachronistic. It is true that term exists since Ancient Greece, but it wasn't until the 18-19th Century when the word "Spain" and "Iberia" finally got their modern meanings. The Castillian-Aragonese Union started to use "Spain" as its name because that monarchy controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula. If that union had never existed, what we now know as Spain wouldn't exist either. If Portugal had united the entire Peninsula (or most of it, at least), its name would be "Spain", just a different version to the Spain that exists today and, of course, different to the EU4 Spain.

The real question is, is it worth creating a new tag for this hypothetical situation? I think most Portuguese players would rather keep Portugal with its original name and the IA Portugal will never form Spain either. I'd even say a country with Portuguese culture should not be able to form Spain.

 

[Duarte]

no one is asking for a new tag, again all that is being asked is to use the name change feature, why do people keep assuming a new tag is needed?

 

[Delterius]

Portugal forming Spain seems pretty unrealistic, as in they wouldn't use that name.
It would more likely be called Iberia or Lusitania, or even Portugalia or Galicia.

Iberia is a XIXth century meme invented by a french geographer and propagated by the french state in its ambitions to create a 'latin coprosperity sphere' across the americas and europe. As with so many things it is then appropriated by nationalists who like to project their behavior on people from centuries before the nation state was ever a thing. The reason Hispania was ever picked as the name for a realm whose ambition is to integrate the peninsula, and which succeeded for the most part, is simply because 'Hispania' was the common name for the peninsula for nearly 2000 years. Not 'Iberia'.

A Portugal that comes to encompass the peninsula via war, inheritance or whatever would most likely keep the name Portugal and/or be nicknamed the kingdom of the hispanic peninsula. Because that is what it would be. Assuming it would be a composite monarchy of the peninsula's different constituent kingdoms, it would take their flags and at their to its emblem, looking very much like the 'iberian' union's.

 

[Sete]

Scholar Antonio de Nebrija (Castilian): "The Lusitanian standard is captured, which was a valuable insignia, yet by the negligence of Pedro Velasco and Pedro Vaca, to whom it was entrusted, as [already] mentioned, it is subsequently taken up by the enemy"

Context Battle of Toro.

Portuguese were referred as Lusitanians by their Castillian counterparts.
It's not unfeasible to call it Lusitania.

Iberian Union could be a good name aswell, since if Portugal forms Spain, it loses its heraldry in the flag which makes 0 sense.

Is it as big of a meme than the tag germany currently in game?

Why would they call themselves hispania when one of the grandsons of the "Emperor of Hispania" clearly fought to form his own country, and be separated from that political entity?

 

[Delterius]

Scholar Antonio de Nebrija (Castilian): "The Lusitanian standard is captured, which was a valuable insignia, yet by the negligence of Pedro Velasco and Pedro Vaca, to whom it was entrusted, as [already] mentioned, it is subsequently taken up by the enemy"

And in battle across the mediterranean christians and muslims would often call each other Franks and Turks in general. So let's create the United Super Francia and Grand Turkia tags anon.

Linguistic affectation has nothing to do with official names beyond what was actually taken by the states in history.

It's not unfeasible to call it Lusitania.

It is and had been the Kingdom of Portugal for centuries. Not the nationalist parody of taking <insert roman name here> and renaming your entire existence after it. That sort of thing is a XIXth century invention.

Why would they call themselves hispania when one of the grandsons of the "Emperor of Hispania" clearly fought to form his own country, and be separated from that political entity?

Because you're now the 'Emperor' of Hispania (the actual name for the peninsula, used at the time period of the game and, unlike Iberia, wasn't invented by random frenchperson in the 1820s)?

What's next? Aragon forming Greater Roussilonia?

 

[Sete]

Oh wow nationalistic parody when I clearly show you a 15th century source.
Nice.

There is also the fact that the mission itself is named "lusitanian empire".

God damn nationalistic devs and their parodies. Imagine if they added a germany tag on the game! Now that would be crazy.

This game already has plenty of fiction on it in case you haven't noticed, and naming it Lusitanian Empire, since United Kingdom of Portugal and Castille is not cool enough, just follows the line of tought already set up by the devs with the mission naming.

So take a chill pill bro, it's just a game, where you create alternate history.

I dont remember seeing a Kingdom of God in my history lessons, or Portugal and Castille being "Historical Friends"

 

[Delterius]

Oh wow nationalistic parody when I clearly show you a 15th century source.

Show me an actual source of the Kingdom of Portugal renaming itself Lusitânia. Or even considering that course of action.

Not a guy who once used a different adjective for the subject of his writing, ie a literary affectation.

You can't because its the Kingdom of Portugal and its ultramarine possessions. Conquering Salamanca wouldn't change that. Regardless of wether a portuguese rando in 2020 feels that Portugal should adopt a brand different from that of Castille or Aragon or Galicia or Navarra or any other kingdom in the Hispanic peninsula which would somehow unify it. That's the whole problem with nationalist ideology. You project it onto the past. Like unifying europe, calling yourself the 'roman empire' and wearing togas. Its a parody of history.

Se você quiser se basear em qualquer coisa falada por qualquer pessoa então vamos adicionar uma missão chamada 'Quinto Império' a Portugal lmao.

 

[Sete]

Show me an actual source of the Kingdom of Portugal renaming itself Lusitânia.

You can't because that's what post nation state lame people do.

Se você quiser se basear em qualquer coisa falada por qualquer pessoa então vamos adicionar uma missão chamada 'Quinto Império' a Portugal lmao.

Show me an actual source of a Kingdom of God forming, or Templars in the random new world.

Lame excuses for lame people indeed.

 

[navaluiki]

Scholar Antonio de Nebrija (Castilian): "The Lusitanian standard is captured, which was a valuable insignia, yet by the negligence of Pedro Velasco and Pedro Vaca, to whom it was entrusted, as [already] mentioned, it is subsequently taken up by the enemy"

Context Battle of Toro.

Portuguese were referred as Lusitanians by their Castillian counterparts.
It's not unfeasible to call it Lusitania.

But that's a poetic name. My point is that if Portugal had conquered the entire Peninsula, it would have chosen Hispania as its name (either official or just poethic name) instead of just Lusitania

Iberian Union could be a good name aswell, since if Portugal forms Spain, it loses its heraldry in the flag which makes 0 sense.

I agree with this sentence

Why would they call themselves hispania when one of the grandsons of the "Emperor of Hispania" clearly fought to form his own country, and be separated from that political entity?

That title was only really used by Leonese monarchs. Castille also got its independence from León (several times actually) and that wasn't a problem when Castille united with León and some centuries later formed Spain.

 

[Delterius]

Show me an actual source of a Kingdom of God forming, or Templars in the random new world.

Lame excuses for lame people indeed.

Oh, nice. Your retort is that renaming Portugal 'Lusitânia' has the same level of plausibility as the Random New World, which includes Atlantis.

Well, I very much agree. I can't find historical sources for fantasies. Be they nationalist portugal from 1453 or indiana jones and the native american templars.

I agree with this sentence

TBH, that would be making the same mistake as with Byzantium. Both are modern day projections onto the past. The notion of calling the peninsula 'Iberia' is from centuries into the future and it wasn't even invented by the people of the peninsula on their own. It only disseminated because of french cultural primacy on the continent.

A Portugal that inherits or conquers the peninsula is really just 'Hispania'.

 

[Sete]

Like I previously mentioned, since the mission is names Lusitanian Empire, it just follows up that line of tought.

I personally would prefer Iberian Union, as it happened, just exploring other alternatives.

Unfortunately with the Spain tag, you get the historical Spain, of Castille and Aragon.

 

[Delterius]

Unfortunately with the Spain tag, you get the historical Spain, of Castille and Aragon.

And Portugal, if you consider the example of the Union you've cited.

 

[Sete]

Oh, so you're saying that renaming Portugal 'Lusitânia' has the same level of plausibility as the Random New World, which includes Atlantis.

Well, I very much agree.

Same level of plausibility of a germany in the 16th century and yet that ain't bothering you.

It is laughable where you draw the line.

I'm treating this as a game, where you can create your implausible history.

Unfortunately the Spain tag already is committed to the Historical Spain, and with the historical flag.

If I want to form a "Spain" with Portugal and Castille, a new tag is needed and a new flag is needed, and since the Spain tag is already in use, an alternative is needed.

 

[Delterius]

Same level of plausibility of a germany in the 16th century and yet that ain't bothering you.

Who says it doesn't?

But again, I love how you quickly go from 'i have actual sources' to 'eh who cares about historical plausibility, atlantis is in the game'. Moving goalposts much?

In the end of the day I just care a great deal more about the history of Portugal and would rather not a Golden Century esque fiasco when it comes to ignorance of its history. I was incensed when they added english minority expulsion to the portuguese and the castillians and would rather not see further ruination.

If Portugal conquers the peninsula known at the time as Hispania and its 'tag' changes, that's called 'Forming the Spanish Nation militarily'. Been in-game since day one. Wanting a new flag with bigger portugal shield and a new name that is different from Spain is just modern day nationalism projecting itself onto the past, ignoring the glory and the actual people who lived at the time.

 

[Sete]

And Portugal, if you consider the example of the Union you've cited.

 

[Froonk]

Same level of plausibility of a germany in the 16th century and yet that ain't bothering you.

It is laughable where you draw the line.

I'm treating this as a game, where you can create your implausible history.

Unfortunately the Spain tag already is committed to the Historical Spain, and with the historical flag.

If I want to form a "Spain" with Portugal and Castille, a new tag is needed and a new flag is needed, and since the Spain tag is already in use, an alternative is needed.

It's more like calling Germany "The Huns" if it is founded by Bavaria instead of Prussia because Catholic and Protestant inhabitants didn't get along and weren't united for most of its history and Englishmen from after it was formed started calling Germans Huns in their propaganda.

 

[Delterius]

flag thing

Philip of Spain sovereign of the Union of all kingdoms of Hispania, including Portugal. Yes.

So, Portugal uniting the peninsula is really just called Spain. Most likely keeping the portuguese ideas for added uniqueness.