Portugal "GIGI" you lost button

[yerm]

I would never form the Union with Spain and "sacrifice" my contry name....
It's like England conquering France and the union would be call France....

Not really, no. This is not Portugal conquering the peninsula and naming themselves Castile. Spain is a new name, a new country, and only in OUR historical and nationalist perception looking back is spain everything-but-Portugal in that area. Spain conceptually applied to the whole region and included Portugal. Historically, Spain came to apply to everything else except for Portugal, but that was our history. Objections to the name Spain or any variation of it are 100% tied to a modern and possibly nationalist view that has no basis whatsoever in the context of what Spain meant before Isabella. Spain, in 1444, did not mean what it means today, and refusing to form Spain as a country dominated by Portugal instead of Castile is just being petty.

Sorry if that comes across as mean, but the attitude that I see here strikes me as racially charged and void of any historically legitimate complaint. Also, having Spanish friends doesn't mean you can't be racist against Spanish; saying "I'm not racist I have many black friends" is basically THE joke for identifying a racist person here in the USA.

 

[net.split]

then look at this.



Iberian Union not Spanish Union.

That is after Spain already existed. The Portuguese decision is to make a Portuguese Spain, not to submit to the Spain that we know from history.

The flag is the only real problem, which hopefully can be fixed as mentioned above.

 

[yerm]

then look at this.



Iberian Union not Spanish Union.

In 1581 Spain existed, had for generations, and was conceptually extremely close to what we now think of when we think Spain.

In 1444, not at all the case. Not in any way.

 

[Razzien]

I only go back to Portugal in the summer and what i learned through the years, is that in Portugal for the locals, the worst possible name you can call someone is spanish.
So for me because i am half danish i can understand their arguments i can see what they will think of that button if after they buy the game.

 

[ahyangyi]

So you're saying that these EU4 Portuguese have some kind of vision about an alternate future where an imaginary country called Spain (which doesn't exist for them) conquers them and so they decide not to call themselves Spain?

Hispania isn't from the future, it's from the past.

 

[Tacticus101]

I believe this article is appropriate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperator_totius_Hispaniae

EDIT: For those who don't want to read the whole thing, there were Portuguese kings that called themselves Emperor of Spain.

 

[Oriflamme]

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Until only a few centuries ago, Spain was not a country. Spain was the peninsula. And I daresay that "Spain" was used to refer to the peninsula a lot more than "Iberia".

 

[Chamboozer]

then look at this.



Iberian Union not Spanish Union.

Read it again.

In 1581, Philip became Philip I of Portugal, joining both crowns into the most extended empire in history up to that time. The Spanish Habsburgs (Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal, Philip IV of Spain and III of Portugal) ruled what has later been called the Iberian Union, a personal union of different kingdoms.

It was not called that at the time.

 

[yerm]

I only go back to Portugal in the summer and what i learned through the years, is that in Portugal for the locals, the worst possible name you can call someone is spanish.
So for me because i am half danish i can understand their arguments i can see what they will think of that button if after they buy the game.

Look, I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't work in this game. We're not talking about 20th century Portuguese who dislike being Spanish, we're talking about independent Kingdoms in the 15th century. The name Spain is the logical name for the region, and a hypothetically valid possible name had Portugal's rulers claimed the other thrones of the peninsula. A similar example is in real life, Scotland grabbed the English crown through a union, yet in game Great Britain retains the English, not Scottish, idea set. Not really a problem or too terribly a-historic. Portugal being the one to unite the peninsula, not Castile or the Habsburgs, is still realistically and logically Hispania. It's Hispania in CK2, is it not?

Basically, not wanting to be called Spain because you hate Spain today even though it makes total sense from both historical and gameplay perspectives just screams of bigotry and should never be something the devs need to cater to. Don't like Spain, don't want to be called Spanish, don't press the button, and don't complain about it. Or, make a thread about Kosovo being Serbian and have some REAL fun.

 

[Sunbro BigBoss]

So art of war came out and it's great but i don't get why there is a bug that wasn't been fixed since the start of the game.
Portugal still has the "You lose button" if you press it you stop being portugal and you pass being Galician, Castilian, Catalan which is fine if you live in the other side of the frontier and they have been a very successful political assimilation, but is stupid in our side.

The main cultural characteristic of being Portuguese is that we are not spanish and that we are not apart of spain. We are Apart of Iberia.
So if Portugal would form something would be Iberia and never spain.

One Last thing even during the 60 years Portugal was under-control of the kings of spain we remained independent country.

From a geographical/historical point of view : Hispania/Spain = Iberia

From a nationalist point of view: Hispania/Spain =/= Iberia

Now, setting nationalism aside (because really, 1444 national identities weren't born yet in a modern way) it makes perfect sense for any kingdom owning the whole iberian peninsula to crown itself king of Hispania just for the sake of legitimacy back in 1444... It would not make sense for a king to not consider himself as king of his whole domain, would it?
One must understand that if that were to happen, nowadays Spain would be associated with Portuguese culture, not the Castillian one and thus it would make complete sense

Also, by your logic there shouldn't even exist a country named Spain: There's not one "Spanish" culture or one "Spanish" language (even if spanish is used as a synonym of the dominant language); there is Castillian, Leonese, Catalan, Aragonese, Basque, Galician... Outside of Spain it's used as an umbrella term, but like many big countries, there's not an homogeneous culture

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Look, I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't work in this game. We're not talking about 20th century Portuguese who dislike being Spanish, we're talking about independent Kingdoms in the 15th century. The name Spain is the logical name for the region, and a hypothetically valid possible name had Portugal's rulers claimed the other thrones of the peninsula. A similar example is in real life, Scotland grabbed the English crown through a union, yet in game Great Britain retains the English, not Scottish, idea set. Not really a problem or too terribly a-historic. Portugal being the one to unite the peninsula, not Castile or the Habsburgs, is still realistically and logically Hispania. It's Hispania in CK2, is it not?

Basically, not wanting to be called Spain because you hate Spain today even though it makes total sense from both historical and gameplay perspectives just screams of bigotry and should never be something the devs need to cater to. Don't like Spain, don't want to be called Spanish, don't press the button, and don't complain about it. Or, make a thread about Kosovo being Serbian and have some REAL fun.

What’s “funny” is that no Portuguese in this thread said that they hate Spain, the Spanish or whatever but we are being labelled as Nationalists just because we like our country’s name and want to keep it; it is like asking Benfica's fans if they want to change the clubs name to something else (...) Regardless no one knows for sure if Portugal would change its name if Iberia was united under Portugal so the in-game decision is just a guess. Like previous posters said what does not make sense is having a decision where Portugal can form Spain completely ditching the Portuguese flag.

 

[BaZERGer]

Also, by your logic there shouldn't even exist a country named Spain: There's not one "Spanish" culture or one "Spanish" language (even if spanish is used as a synonym of the dominant language); there is Castillian, Leonese, Catalan, Aragonese, Basque, Galician... Outside of Spain it's used as an umbrella term, but like many big countries, there's not an homogeneous culture

Well, there didn't exist a country called spain, untill someone decided "hey, let's just call ourselves that". Reality has shown to be very flexible in regards to concepts that exists in our minds.

 

[Awesomeguy32]

Five bucks that there's someone working on a mod for this/made a mod for this.

 

[FreeSoc]

Not really, no. This is not Portugal conquering the peninsula and naming themselves Castile. Spain is a new name, a new country, and only in OUR historical and nationalist perception looking back is spain everything-but-Portugal in that area. Spain conceptually applied to the whole region and included Portugal. Historically, Spain came to apply to everything else except for Portugal, but that was our history. Objections to the name Spain or any variation of it are 100% tied to a modern and possibly nationalist view that has no basis whatsoever in the context of what Spain meant before Isabella. Spain, in 1444, did not mean what it means today, and refusing to form Spain as a country dominated by Portugal instead of Castile is just being petty.

Sorry if that comes across as mean, but the attitude that I see here strikes me as racially charged and void of any historically legitimate complaint. Also, having Spanish friends doesn't mean you can't be racist against Spanish; saying "I'm not racist I have many black friends" is basically THE joke for identifying a racist person here in the USA.

Having said that, it might be interesting/nice if Portugal got a different flag (and possibly colour, although that's not important) when forming Spain, because the current flag does by definition imply a union between Aragon/Naples and Castile.

 

[yerm]

What’s “funny” is that no Portuguese in this thread said that they hate Spain, the Spanish or whatever but we are being labelled as Nationalists just because we like our country’s name and want to keep it; it is like asking Benfica's fans if they want to change the clubs name to something else (...) Regardless no own knows for sure if Portugal would change its name if Iberia was united under Portugal so the in-game decision is just a guess. Like previous posters said what does not make sense is having a decision where Portugal can form Spain completely ditching the Portuguese flag.

What? Forming Spain ditches a name no matter who you are. Am I missing something here where Aragon can form Spain but keep their name?

No Portuguese said they hate Spain, but they referred to being called Spain as an insult or a loss, so we all drew the logical conclusion.

edit - the flag part has a point, but lots of flags do suck. That's the ONLY one worth looking into.

 

[Razzien]

I Didnt what to talk about the flag situation because i think that's very nationalist, But yes It's very funny you form spain and all your flag things disappear.

Also didn't talk about the color of Portugal that shouldn't be green, that is the modern Portugal, the 1444 Portugal should be Blue. Don't get me wrong i prefer the modern color but the 1444 Portuguese color should be light blue...

 

[Sunspawn]

What’s “funny” is that no Portuguese in this thread said that they hate Spain, the Spanish or whatever but we are being labelled as Nationalists just because we like our country’s name and want to keep it;

But Castille and Aragon do not keep their names - why should Portugal be so special as to keep theirs?

 

[Jess135]

What’s “funny” is that no Portuguese in this thread said that they hate Spain, the Spanish or whatever but we are being labelled as Nationalists just because we like our country’s name and want to keep it; it is like asking Benfica's fans if they want to change the clubs name to something else (...) Regardless no own knows for sure if Portugal would change its name if Iberia was united under Portugal so the in-game decision is just a guess. Like previous posters said what does not make sense is having a decision where Portugal can form Spain completely ditching the Portuguese flag.

Considering the fact that Castille and Aragon changed their name when they formed Spain, it feels like a fairly safe assumption. Can you seriously not wrap your mind around an alternate history where Castille and Portugal formed Spain together and the Aragonese are on this forum in 2014 complaining about having their cultural identity violated by being called Spain when they unify the peninsula?

 

[Razzien]

Considering the fact that Castille and Aragon changed their name when they formed Spain, it feels like a fairly safe assumption. Can you seriously not wrap your mind around an alternate history where Castille and Portugal formed Spain together and the Aragonese are on this forum in 2014 complaining about having their cultural identity violated by being called Spain when they unify the peninsula.

LOL that is a very funny and cleaver argument i have to say. If that were the case i would still give then reason in that alternate universe.
The correct name should be Iberia.

 

[Jokolytic]

Spain comes from España, which in turn derives from Latin Hispania. Hispania was a Roman province and also referred to the Kingdom of the Visigoths. The Byzantines (Romans) also used Spania later on. Espania, Ispania, I wonder what the Vulgar Latin term was...

Anyway, yes I do wish a Portuguese "Spain" was Iberia.