Portugal "GIGI" you lost button

[JQuacker]

How is this is even an issue, except for the aforementioned "putting present political perspectives into past problems"? Portugal wouldn't be "flipping" or "switching sides." If Spain doesn't exist, then there is no Spain for Portugal to say "we don't want to be called Spaniards!" They could form Spain, and tell those stinkin' Castilians & Aragonese to shove off - they can't be the Spaniards! In this scenario - there is no "Spain" for Portugal to dislike - they would be the Spain.

I'm sure this is near and dear to the native Portuguese, but look at it from the standpoint of THERE IS NO SPAIN YET.

 

[spyroware1]

Back then there was no Spain, but Spains (old title Emperor of all Spains, like Emperor of all Russias). The Kings of Spain assumed the title in order to legitimise their rule over Castille and Aragon. Both crowns had many 'non-core' territories, like Leon, Catalonia etc Uniting them would upset the feudal pyramid, ie Catalans recognise the Aragonese King in Valencia, this doesnt mean that they're willing to extend that recognition to Madrid. Spain doesnt have this problem. Dynasties and translatio imperii based on some geographical area worked much better as institutions back then, instead of modern institutions like nationalism. See Aragon, they wanted to created an Occitan super state that straddled the Pyrenees and unceremonially fell flat on their face because of weak dynastics.

As for Portugal its equivalent would probably be Lusitania all the way from the roman times, consisting of Portugal + Galicia + Leon. That is if you decided to partiton Castille with say Aragon. But during the war of Castillian Succession Portugal was close to forming a union with Castille. How would you call that? If you called it Lusitania France would immediately revive its Frankish claims and swoop in to grab Aragon, would you want that?

Also fun fact a spanish flag with the Burgundian Cross would befit a Portugal-led Spain too, since its dynasty come from a House Burgundy bastard.

TLDR: nationalism is unsophisticated.

 

[Embraer]

It's a CULTURAL issue. Regardless of what point in time Spain was Castille or Hispania is not the point of the OP. And as a Lusitanian myself I agree and have ALWAYS taken issue with being thrown into the same pot as the Hispanics.

There is a reason why Portugal is Portugal today and speaks Portuguese and not Spanish. It is a matter of CULTURE and not just historical conquests.

Now with that said, Hispania was the Roman word for the entire Iberian peninsula. So I can see that point of view. However, the Romans also referred to the area that is now Portugal as Lusitania. And that particular area subsequently formed it's own language and culture apart from the rest of Hispania demonstrates that there has always been a separate cultural identity for that corner of Iberia.

So it's not a reach to say that in the 14th and 15th Centuries the Portuguese would NOT have called themselves SPAIN or HISPANIA had they conquered the whole of Iberia.

 

[IIWW]

It's a CULTURAL issue. Regardless of what point in time Spain was Castille or Hispania is not the point of the OP. And as a Lusitanian myself I agree and have ALWAYS taken issue with being thrown into the same pot as the Hispanics.

There is a reason why Portugal is Portugal today and speaks Portuguese and not Spanish. It is a matter of CULTURE and not just historical conquests.

Now with that said, Hispania was the Roman word for the entire Iberian peninsula. So I can see that point of view. However, the Romans also referred to the area that is now Portugal as Lusitania. And that particular area subsequently formed it's own language and culture apart from the rest of Hispania demonstrates that there has always been a separate cultural identity for that corner of Iberia.

So it's not a reach to say that in the 14th and 15th Centuries the Portuguese would NOT have called themselves SPAIN or HISPANIA had they conquered the whole of Iberia.

I still can't see why not. The argument You posted are applying to Aragorn and Castille as well, yet they called themself "Spain"

 

[Tufto]

First we had Balkan nationalism.

Then we had Slavic nationalism.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, get ready for the trend of the decade: Portuguese nationalism!

 

[Embraer]

I still can't see why not. The argument You posted are applying to Aragorn and Castille as well, yet they called themself "Spain"

Those two particular cultures you mentioned were closer to Castille and thus modern day Spain. Culturally speaking the Lusitanian corner of Iberia was no closer to Castille than the southwestern corner of France on the other side of the Pyranees.

I'm trying to think of an example off the top of my head as I type...I suppose it would be similar to the modern day regions of Switzerland. The Romans considered that entire region "Gaul" and for much of history they shared a similar path. However, culturally they were always different and subsequently formed two distinct nations, languages, and identities: France and Switzerland...although "French" is still an official language in Switzerland they are two separate Cultural identities.

 

[IIWW]

Those two particular cultures you mentioned were closer to Castille and thus modern day Spain. Culturally speaking the Lusitanian corner of Iberia was no closer to Castille than the southwestern corner of France on the other side of the Pyranees.

I'm trying to think of an example off the top of my head as I type...I suppose it would be similar to the modern day regions of Switzerland. The Romans considered that entire region "Gaul" and for much of history they shared a similar path. However, culturally they were always different and subsequently formed two distinct nations, languages, and identities: France and Switzerland...although "French" is still an official language in Switzerland they are two separate Cultural identities.

I see Your point, but I'd dare to provide a counterexamples.
Commonwealth - Lithuania and Poland are certainly different culture, yet they called themselves "Commonwealth of both nations"
Scandinavia - surely they are different cultures, yet noone complains (apart for it having ugly colour)
Great Britain - scottish and english are totally different cultures, they aren't even the same culture group (IRL)
Germany - quite a lot of germans and bavarians consider Bavaria to be different country
Especially the case of GB: they have geographical, not cultural, proximity. Just like Iberia/Spain

 

[Razzien]

First we had Balkan nationalism.

Then we had Slavic nationalism.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, get ready for the trend of the decade: Portuguese nationalism!

This is not a question of nationalism we are oldest country in europe with untouched frontiers.
And While the Romans called Hispania to Most of Iberia they also recognized the fact of part of it was called Lusitania and other part Galicia.
And is the united people from Lusitania and south Galicia that made the Portugal at time and is it comes from our roots.

During the second world war was the last time Spain thought about trying to conquer Portugal and even then their generals were ready to change the name for Iberia.
This is a very easy bug to fix, when a person playing with Portugal press the Button it forms Iberia that is a name that every one in Iberia can agree upon. Like when you play with scandinavian country you can form Scandinavia.

I am Half Danish, Half Portuguese so my reasons aren't at all about nationalism only about culture and traditions.

 

[TheBoozehammer]

Spain makes more sense to me.

 

[GunthiHrod]

I would never form the Union with Spain and "sacrifice" my contry name....
It's like England conquering France and the union would be call France....

 

[IIWW]

I would never form the Union with Spain and "sacrifice" my contry name....
It's like England conquering France and the union would be call France....

It's a union with Castille and Aragorn, not with Spain. And I would be surprised if this decision didn't have the "spain does not exist" requirement.

 

[Demonsul]

I would never form the Union with Spain and "sacrifice" my contry name....
It's like England conquering France and the union would be call France....

That was the entire goal of the hundred years' war, you know.

 

[Sobisonator]

Nationalism is never good for anything. If you play Portugal and don't want to form Spain because with your perspective on it you decide that it goes against some invented national identity, sure, go ahead and never form it.

I'm not angry that I can only form "Great Britain" as England because "Britain" is a name for native Celts and not the superior Germanic Anglo-Saxons who should be recognised! I demand "Mega-England" to be the only formable tag for England!

 

[Razzien]

Spain makes more sense to me.

Thats not your fault is just lack of knowledge. The modern Spanish that want that unionism are pro iberian Federalism not Spanish Federalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Federalism

Is like for me to say that North Mexico Makes more sense to me than California. You know not my fault just lack of knowledge.

 

[ShoGuL]

The only thing I agree with is that a Portugal-formed Spain should have a different flag and color from the Castille/Aragon formed Spain. It makes 100% sense for a Portugal conquering Iberia to form the nation of 'Spain', but it doesn't make sense for them to use the Castille/Aragonese union flag........

 

[Sobisonator]

The only thing I agree with is that a Portugal-formed Spain should have a different flag and color from the Castille/Aragon formed Spain. It makes 100% sense for a Portugal conquering Iberia to form the nation of 'Spain', but it doesn't make sense for them to use the Castille/Aragonese union flag........

Maybe this will be possible with EU4's upcoming new flag system. That would be a good addition!

 

[Chamboozer]

Thats not your fault is just lack of knowledge. The modern Spanish that want that unionism are pro iberian Federalism not Spanish Federalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Federalism

Is like for me to say that North Mexico Makes more sense to me than California. You know not my fault just lack of knowledge.

...

Iberian Federalism, Pan-Iberism or simply Iberism is an ideology developed mainly during the beginning of the 20th century

In other words, has no bearing at all on what would make sense for a game beginning in 1444.

 

[Razzien]

Nationalism is never good for anything. If you play Portugal and don't want to form Spain because with your perspective on it you decide that it goes against some invented national identity, sure, go ahead and never form it.

I'm not angry that I can only form "Great Britain" as England because "Britain" is a name for native Celts and not the superior Germanic Anglo-Saxons who should be recognised! I demand "Mega-England" to be the only formable tag for England!

Nah thats completely different. There is an cultural agreement between the peoples on both sides of the frontier that if would be possible one country to be formed from the junction of both the name would be Iberia.

 

[Prom_STar]

"I feel that pushing this button is a betrayal of all it means or ought to mean to be Portuguese."

So don't press it.

 

[Razzien]

...




In other words, has no bearing at all on what would make sense for a game beginning in 1444.

then look at this.

In 1581, Philip became Philip I of Portugal, joining both crowns into the most extended empire in history up to that time. The Spanish Habsburgs (Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal, Philip IV of Spain and III of Portugal) ruled what has later been called the Iberian Union, a personal union of different kingdoms.

Iberian Union not Spanish Union.