Portugal (Emperor NI feedback)

[Sete]

Considering the changes done to Portugal NI in the upcoming patch, here is my feedback to make it more historical and flavourful:

POR_ideas = {
        start = {
            range = 0.25
            trade_efficiency = 0.15
        }
   
        bonus = {
            global_tariffs = 0.20
        }
   
        trigger = {
            tag = POR
        }
        free = yes        #will be added at load.
   
        legacy_of_the_navigator = {
            sunk_ship_morale_hit_recieved = -0.33
            disengagement_chance = 0.05
        }
        Feitoria = {
            global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
           defensiveness = 0.1
        }
        Cartaz = {
            global_trade_power = 0.1
        }
        armada_da_india = {
             leader_naval_shock = 2
}
        }
        the_bandeirantes = {
            global_colonial_growth = 15
        }
        royal_absolutism = {
            build_cost = -0.15
            yearly_absolutism = 0.5
        }
        por_royal_military_academy =
            artillery_power = 0.1
        }
    }

I left trade efficiency on the traditions because for some reason the devs love it, but honestly I would replace it navy tradition due to the fact its the oldest continuously serving navy in the world.

I replaced afonsine ordinances for Feitorias.

Feitorias is a staple of the Portuguese expansion and for example it is shown on several other games as an unique building like on Civ series or age of empires, as a fortified trade building.

Another ideas added instead of land over faith is the cartaz sistem:

Cartaz - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cartaz (plural cartazes, in Portuguese) was a naval trade license or pass issued by the Portuguese in the Indian ocean during the sixteenth century (circa 1502-1750), under the rule of the Portuguese empire. The British navicert system of 1939-45 shared similarities with it. Its name derives from the Portuguese term cartas meaning letters.

Another Historical Idea that could be used.

Armada da India is a naval Idea to improve Portugal naval power, especially boarding since that was the preferred method of the Portuguese.

Portuguese India Armadas - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Portuguese India Armadas (Armadas da Índia) were the fleets of ships, organized by the crown of the Kingdom of Portugal and dispatched on an annual basis from Portugal to India, principally Goa. These armadas undertook the Carreira da Índia ("India Run"), following the sea route around the Cape of Good Hope first opened up by Vasco da Gama in 1497–1499.

Also replaced Bandeirantes with increased global settle growth to represent the beguinning of the colonization of Brasil.

I tried to maintain most of the ideas the same, just buffing the defensiveness earlier and improving their naval power.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

One thing I disliked is the idea of the Bandeirantes Expeditions being solely Portuguese, as many Spaniards and did exactly the same, or Portuguese at all, since it was a native thing done mostly by men born or raised in the colonies with very little involvement of Portuguese men, let alone the Crown.

Edit: grammar.

 

[Sete]

Unless I'm wrong, Brasil was under Portugal rule, so the locals would be Portuguese subjects, since the Capitanies where they hailed from where granted by the Portuguese King.

Per wiki, they were claiming land for the Crown of Portugal, so the idea fits.

Per wiki: The Bandeirantes ([bɐ̃dejˈɾɐ̃t(ʃ)is]), literally "flag-carriers", were explorers, adventurers, and fortune hunters in early Colonial Brazil. They led expeditions carrying the Portuguese flag, the bandeira, claiming, by planting the flag, new lands for the Crown of Portugal. They are largely responsible for Brazil's great expansion westward, far beyond the Tordesillas Line of 1494, by which the Pope divided the new continent into a western, Castilian section, and an eastern, Portuguese section.[1]

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

The captaincies, as far as I remember, were granted to governors who often never bothered visiting and properly overseeing the colonies, so hardly the best argument there. At least when comparing to the Spanish conquistadors who wanted to stay close to the money for a while at least. I distinctly remember a historian I knew comparing them to de Frontenac in Québec or Nassau in Dutch America and how negligent Portugal was early on in America given their focus on Africa and Asia.

But about the Portuguese identity, the colonial logic says that someone from the old country born anywhere under their empire is a citizen of the old country, but that is the formal definition. I could raise the whole question of Third Culture individuals, but it is easier to simply remember a few things. The Amerindian/Indigenous/Native population, for instance. People settling on the colonies often assimilated native habits and language and interbred with them, enough so that in the province, or whatever, of Sáo Vicente they no longer spoke Portuguese. Also the regions closer the Spanish territory were and influenced each other, making those people noticeably less "pure" Portuguese, specially when Spain assimilated Portugal after that cardinal king died. (really kind of weird having a cardinal as king, is it not?)

Another thing is that the Portuguese America was originally settled by the unwanted, the criminals, poor, Jews, and such, who had at beast ambiguous feelings about Portugal and very little reason to stay loyal to it. And, and this is key here, they often crashed with Portuguese/Spanish officials. When Portugal was independent they would raid Spanish missions for slaves, and when Spain assimilated Portugal they still raided Spanish missions for slaves (200 or so years before the Jesuits were forced out). They were attacking both European secular and spiritual presence and kept doing so for a good time too. So, they were either not much Portuguese or at best Portuguese outlaws. A entire "nation" of Portuguese outlaws.

I remember reading something by someone commenting on something Saramago wrote, or something like that something, about the evolution of the Portuguese language and again was reinforced that the American colonies had a very bad relationship to their overlord, something most other countries only began to feel a while after Hamilton came out the American Independence and the French Revolution shortly after. Also, that the idea of the bandeirante explorer was heavily romanticized in the XIX century and something, something, something.

But to be honest, most of my limited knowledge of the issue involves the Brazilian Empire and the issue of Pedro I and IV, so maybe I am wrong. To me personally, Iberian history gets really boring after the reconquista.

 

[Sete]

So it gets boring when it reaches the interesting part?

Obviously Portugal was negligent.
They did not find much worth trading there except the wood (gold would appear much later) and they had just reached India a couple years back.
So as you said they choose to stay close to the money.

But Brasil was not forgotten. In fact a lot of families from Madeira Island (now how would you define the Portuguese from Madeira? How are they different from the Portuguese from Brasil?
Or is your opinion clouded by modern geopolitics?) helped colonize Brasil and set up the sugar cane farming in there.
(To add another Madeiran was one of the leaders of the Pernambuco insurrection versus the dutch later on).
When the Capitancies failed, they were brought again under the authority of the crown.

I see a lot of people trying to separate Brasil from Portugal due to agendas, and referring to the people present there in the 16th century as Portuguese Brazilians.

Brasil as an entity did not exist. The colony was just an extension of the Crown of Portugal, and as such the 2nd or 3rd generations of colonists would still be Portuguese despite their social status.

Just like in Madeira, they were Portuguese, same in Azores, Cape Verde etc.

Even when in union with Spain the Portuguese did not have any interest in their conflicts, and always considered themselves a separate country, which in fact they were, until one of the Phillips tried to turn Portugal into a province, which provoked the restoration of independence.

I would take what Saramago wrote with a pinch of salt, he was a partisan of joining Portugal with Spain, and had a troubled relationship with Portugal.

The issue was that colonies were not allowed to trade independently and all products would be directed to Portugal.
I doubt that old Manuel in his farm would be too bothered about that, but a Noble or a Merchant could be upset for not profiting enough.

All this to say that Bandeirantes, were expanding Colonial Territory of Brasil for the Crown of Portugal and as such I think it's fair to count them as a Portugal Idea.

And you should read at least about Portugal expansion in Asia. It is quite interesting.

 

[Sete]

Just to add, I find odd your issue with Bandeirantes and not with the Trade efficiency.
In fact the bulk of the profits of the Portuguese spice trade accrued not to the Portuguese crown, but to the private consortiums. In 1517–1519, as much as half the price difference for spices between Indian and European markets was pocketed by private European merchants, by 1585, the share reaped by the Portuguese crown had fallen to a mere 15%.

But hey trade efficiency.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Thinking about the game, I am not sure if it would apply to Portugal as a whole since it was something really localized (I have no idea why auto correct wants me to talk like a Yankee today) in one area, and have the bonuses applying to all of Portuguese territories seems a bit too out of character. Plus there are other things that would make much better ideas than that one.

And yes, the colonies were for the most part a extension of the Crown, except by the fact that Mercantilism dictates colonies can only make trade with one country, as you said yourself, or a handful of approved countries at best, to maximize profit. Also, they can do very little without approval or consent of the old country. So there is that. They were a rebellious colony, or at least a not very engaged one.

I do not know exactly how the Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde were at the time, but my guess is that the proximity to Europe made a difference, at least when thinking of Goa, Macau or the folks in Japan. As I said, overtime they start developing a identity of their own and being at odds with the colonial powers tend to aggravate things. Just ask Samuel Addams or Benjamin Franklyn.

But answering your question, Portugal was notable for both its explorers and merchants, so giving them almost Venetian levels of trade advantage makes sense. A very localized phenomenon that lasted barely a century and was led by a rebellious bunch that would around killing priests, bishops and anyone between they and loot? Not so much.

And I was unsure if I remembered it right or not, but I believe one of the explanations for the disregard they had for Tordesillas is related to their disregard for Portuguese/Spanish authority. Again, they raided missions and disobeyed and attacked governors and officers. Portugal had less control over those people than France had over the voyageurs in Canada or the United States had over cowboys and prospectors in their western coast.

 

[Sete]

Thinking about the game, I am not sure if it would apply to Portugal as a whole since it was something really localized (I have no idea why auto correct wants me to talk like a Yankee today) in one area, and have the bonuses applying to all of Portuguese territories seems a bit too out of character. Plus there are other things that would make much better ideas than that one.

And yes, the colonies were for the most part a extension of the Crown, except by the fact that Mercantilism dictates colonies can only make trade with one country, as you said yourself, or a handful of approved countries at best, to maximize profit. Also, they can do very little without approval or consent of the old country. So there is that. They were a rebellious colony, or at least a not very engaged one.

I do not know exactly how the Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde were at the time, but my guess is that the proximity to Europe made a difference, at least when thinking of Goa, Macau or the folks in Japan. As I said, overtime they start developing a identity of their own and being at odds with the colonial powers tend to aggravate things. Just ask Samuel Addams or Benjamin Franklyn.

But answering your question, Portugal was notable for both its explorers and merchants, so giving them almost Venetian levels of trade advantage makes sense. A very localized phenomenon that lasted barely a century and was led by a rebellious bunch that would around killing priests, bishops and anyone between they and loot? Not so much.

And I was unsure if I remembered it right or not, but I believe one of the explanations for the disregard they had for Tordesillas is related to their disregard for Portuguese/Spanish authority. Again, they raided missions and disobeyed and attacked governors and officers. Portugal had less control over those people than France had over the voyageurs in Canada or the United States had over cowboys and prospectors in their western coast.

Most nations have NI that like you said, were inspired by localized phenomenon.
If you look around I'm sure you will find more than a few. In my opinion the game focus way too much on the commercial side of the Portuguese enterprise, and not at all on the religious, militaristic and diplomatic side of it.

I disagree on giving Portugal Venice levels of buff for trade.

Their enterprise was a more militaristic and religious than commercial (at start at least) I have posted extensively about this on the forum and honestly not in the mood to do so again so I'll leave a couple of sugestions:

The Portuguese Empire

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

A few short videos about the Portuguese Empire.

And "Conquerors: How Portugal Forged the First Global Empire."
Book by Roger Crowley

You said you dont find this era interesting so this book is a good introduction to the era.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

These suggestions change fundamentally nothing about Portugal's problems.

Its trade is still far too strong, trade efficiency is simply unnaceptable in their ideas. Their entire mission tree is based on trade bonuses as rewards from establishing a trade empire in Asia, that's a pretty good representation of the Portuguese trade empire, FIRST you need to actually create the empire THEN you profit from trade via mission rewards.

National ideas are passive bonuses, you don't need to do anything to get them, you just get them by virtue of existing, Portugal was not naturally good with trade just by virtue of existing, trade in Europe was dominated by Italy, the Flanders and the Hansa.
However, this is where Portugal needs much better army quality, they were undisputably very successful military against superior foes. This has been already elaborated ad nauseum and at this point its not even up for debate anymore. But as it stands, Portugal still has an absolutely terrible, terrible, trash military. Even with your suggestions, which change nothing from vanilla.

I understand you are trying to make some concessions to the devs and sound more reasonable and less drastic, but sometimes you HAVE to make a stand and be vocal about it. If i was the developer and someone kept complaining about a nation's ideas while suggestiong something fundamentally so similar that is basically a minor flavour request, I wouldn't waste my time to change it, "don't fix what is not broken" afterall.

On the other hand if someone was adamant about the correct national ideas being completely opposed to the current ones, then maybe i did make a mistake and I would probably pay attention to their complaints to see if they actually have a point.

TL : DR
If you are offered 20 and want 50, ask for 100.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

I disagree on giving Portugal Venice levels of buff for trade.

ALMOST Venetian levels.
But I still disagree about the Bandeirantes as something influencing the whole of Portugal, there are much more interesting things that could be highlighted instead.

And the religious side of the place is probably overlooked because no one expected the Spanish Inquisition which is more (in)famous and visible. But I guess most people also have trouble thinking of the colonial expansion as something motivated by Crusader ideals, plus the fact the Portuguese of the day really upstaged the Mediterranean merchants, which does not make most people think of the Crusaders either, and I say that as a "the Knights" enthusiast.

So, as I said, much more notable and usable facets than the afore mentioned expeditions.
And now, if you will excuse me, I must kill my autocorrect from hell.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

ALMOST Venetian levels.
But I still disagree about the Bandeirantes as something influencing the whole of Portugal, there are much more interesting things that could be highlighted instead.

And the religious side of the place is probably overlooked because no one expected the Spanish Inquisition which is more (in)famous and visible. But I guess most people also have trouble thinking of the colonial expansion as something motivated by Crusader ideals, plus the fact the Portuguese of the day really upstaged the Mediterranean merchants, which does not make most people think of the Crusaders either, and I say that as a "the Knights" enthusiast.

So, as I said, much more notable and usable facets than the afore mentioned expeditions.
And now, if you will excuse me, I must kill my autocorrect from hell.

I don't see how Portugal deserves trade bonuses more than any other colonial power.
Their trade income should be a natural occurrence for a playstyle centered on sniping coastal centers of trade all the way to japan and steering it to Europe.
It doesn't need an artificial boost to trade, it needs ideas that facilitates the achievement of this CoT network. Other nations that used this strategy such as France, England and expecially the Netherlands also profited immensely, even far more so than Portugal, so i double down on my claim that the trade rewards from missions are good enough.

As for the Importance of religion in Portuguese history not being represented, i understand where Sete is coming from, but honestly I don't think there is anything NI's can do in that regard, the game simply lack the mechanics to represent such things.
Which religious bonus should Portugal have?
+1 Missionary? Missionary strength? Cost? None make sense because Portugal didn't actually do any conversion in the territories they conquered, an historical Portugal run doesn't need to convert a single province.
Religious unity also doesn't make sense since they are a religious homogeneous nation and papal influence also doesn't make sense since they didn't have a single pope during the game's timeframe.
The best way to portray the Portuguese religious work in this game is via events, and not even Portuguese events but Japanese or Kongolese events.

As for the Bandeirantes, well i believe Portugal already has a too strong of a colonial game, but this is due to picking Exploration+Expansion as their two first ideas and not necessarily because of their national ideas. I believe at least one colonialism-related bonus is warranted for each Colonial Empire.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

(...) As for the Bandeirantes, well i believe Portugal already has a too strong of a colonial game, but this is due to picking Exploration+Expansion as their two first ideas and not necessarily because of their national ideas. I believe at least one colonialism-related bonus is warranted for each Colonial Empire.

True, but why those expeditions in particular. You folks make it sounds as if Portugal had zero other things that could be used instead. For instance, the fact they were the first absolutist monarchy and the first national state ever, the quaint Renaissance of "The Lusiads", that equivalent to King Arthur who died in Africa (I looked it online, it is King Sebastian in the battle of Alcácer Quibir), the mercantile entrepôts all over the globe, the fact Prince Henry was of Scottish ancestry, that whole thing against the Dutch from America to Japan, the whole Villegagnon situation as well, the screaming importance of baroque in their culture, and so on.

But since Emperor will bring Crusader States to that era, maybe the Templarism of Portuguese institutions could be represented somehow. The Spanish (and technically Granada) have the Reconquista, so Portugal could have a colonial maritime crusading mercantile Templar-ish feature of sorts. Maybe.

 

[Sete]

Portuguese Reconquista did not end at Algarve.

You are not wrong about the maritime crusading thing, since Henry was grandmaster of the Order of Christ, Templar sucessors in Portugal.

My intention with this thread is just to rebalance the Portuguese NI to a more historically acceptable level without changing the present ones too much, because the devs never seem interested on receiving feedback about it.

In fact the following ones would be reasonable to use:

POR_ideas = {
start = {
navy_tradition = 0.5
shock_damage_received = -0.15
}

bonus = {
global_tariffs = 0.20
}

trigger = {
tag = POR
}
free = yes #will be added at load.

legacy_of_the_navigator = {
ship_durability = 0.05
range = 0.25
}
feitoria = {
defensiveness = 0.1
global_trade_power = 0.1
}
armada_da_india = {
artillery_fire = 1
leader_naval_shock = 2
}
spice_trade_monopoly = {
trade_steering = 0.15
}
exercito_nacional = {
infantry_power = 0.15
hostile_attrition = 1.0
}
the_bandeirantes = {
global_colonial_growth = 15
}
royal_absolutism = {
yearly_absolutism = 0.5
}
}

(Last one should also have a construction discount bonus.
Lazy to edit)

I disagree with your approach Bandua.
The devs have shown little interest on the Peninsula especially in Portugal. At the bare minimum I want a more historical setting to the ideas already existing, because I sincerely doubt they will be changed again.

We all know that the current ideas are crap, I'm trying to reach a compromise.
To sort Portugal Issues, they have to sort out Iberia balance in a whole.

And if Portugal gets more trade bonus on the estates rework (which I seriously doubt they will have specific ones) I will ask for a refund.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Portuguese Reconquista did not end at Algarve.

You are not wrong about the maritime crusading thing, since Henry was grandmaster of the Order of Christ, Templar sucessors in Portugal.

My intention with this thread is just to rebalance the Portuguese NI to a more historically acceptable level without changing the present ones too much, because the devs never seem interested on receiving feedback about it.

In fact the following ones would be reasonable to use:

POR_ideas = {
start = {
navy_tradition = 0.5
shock_damage_received = -0.15
}

bonus = {
global_tariffs = 0.20
}

trigger = {
tag = POR
}
free = yes #will be added at load.

legacy_of_the_navigator = {
ship_durability = 0.05
range = 0.25
}
feitoria = {
defensiveness = 0.1
global_trade_power = 0.1
}
armada_da_india = {
artillery_fire = 1
leader_naval_shock = 2
}
spice_trade_monopoly = {
trade_steering = 0.15
}
exercito_nacional = {
infantry_power = 0.15
hostile_attrition = 1.0
}
the_bandeirantes = {
global_colonial_growth = 15
}
royal_absolutism = {
yearly_absolutism = 0.5
}
}

(Last one should also have a construction discount bonus.
Lazy to edit)

I disagree with your approach Bandua.
The devs have shown little interest on the Peninsula especially in Portugal. At the bare minimum I want a more historical setting to the ideas already existing, because I sincerely doubt they will be changed again.

We all know that the current ideas are crap, I'm trying to reach a compromise.
To sort Portugal Issues, they have to sort out Iberia balance in a whole.

And if Portugal gets more trade bonus on the estates rework (which I seriously doubt they will have specific ones) I will ask for a refund.

They seemed to listen to you when you suggested unique Portuguese estate mechanics did they not? My hope is still not completely lost...

By the way, this is a bit unrelated but i just did a Castile run the other day and feel like venting.
Castile gets a +5% Morale buff to prepare for the Reconquista.

A 300 dev nation with +15% morale from the traditions and a personal union with two other ~200 and ~100 dev nations, needs a +5% morale boost to fight a 80 dev isolated nation with no military ideas and no allies to help them.

Meanwhile Portugal is supposed to conquer territory from Morocco, a nation with 4 vassals that can field almost twice your force limit and very likely allied with Tlemcen, Tunis or both, and the preparation mission reward is merely a claim on Tangiers and 50 admin power.

I'll let that sink in for a minute.

And it gets better, if Castile takes North Morocco (which is something that they never did) they get a Whopping 15% Morale bonus. Meanwhile, Portugal for an equally difficult task of conquering West Morocco (which they actually suceeded), gets a mere 150 admin power.

This is the level of disconnection from reality that the devs have with the balance of their game.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

(...)You are not wrong about the maritime crusading thing, since Henry was grandmaster of the Order of Christ, Templar sucessors in Portugal.(...)

And of Scottish ancestry. (^_^)

 

[Sete]

They seemed to listen to you when you suggested unique Portuguese estate mechanics did they not? My hope is still not completely lost...

By the way, this is a bit unrelated but i just did a Castile run the other day and feel like venting.
Castile gets a +5% Morale buff to prepare for the Reconquista.

A 300 dev nation with +15% morale from the traditions and a personal union with two other ~200 and ~100 dev nations, needs a +5% morale boost to fight a 80 dev isolated nation with no military ideas and no allies to help them.

Meanwhile Portugal is supposed to conquer territory from Morocco, a nation with 4 vassals that can field almost twice your force limit and very likely allied with Tlemcen, Tunis or both, and the preparation mission reward is merely a claim on Tangiers and 50 admin power.

I'll let that sink in for a minute.

And it gets better, if Castile takes North Morocco (which is something that they never did) they get a Whopping 15% Morale bonus. Meanwhile, Portugal for an equally difficult task of conquering West Morocco (which they actually suceeded), gets a mere 150 admin power.

This is the level of disconnection from reality that the devs have with the balance of their game.

I sincerely hope that they took some of feedback into consideration.

And you are absolutely right about Morocco.
But of course with the fact that you have Castille as historical friend, its intended for them to do all the hard work, and the community seems ok with that for some reason.
Major issue is that Portugal is the tutorial nation for colonization, which again, is wrong.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

One could say Portugal is the tutorial to the very game.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

One could say Portugal is the tutorial to the very game.

I don't get the Tutorial argument.
Every country is easy if you play it easy. There are far easier countries to play as, such as Castile, France, Muscovy or the Ottomans, they are immeasurably stronger and far more forgiving.

Besides a tutorial nation is supposed to teach you game mechanics. If your entire game is pressing the send colonist button, you aren't learning a damn thing about the game.

 

[Sete]

I don't get the Tutorial argument.
Every country is easy if you play it easy. There are far easier countries to play as, such as Castile, France, Muscovy or the Ottomans, they are immeasurably stronger and far more forgiving.

Besides a tutorial nation is supposed to teach you game mechanics. If your entire game is pressing the send colonist button, you aren't learning a damn thing about the game.

Completely agree. Again Portugal feels like it's there just to become Brazil or Spain.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Completely agree. Again Portugal feels like it's there just to become Brazil or Spain.

If anything, Castile should be the tutorial Nation.

-Popular and attractive nation for beginners

-Very strong and forgiving

-Extremely easy opening war with Granada

-Introduces you to the diplomatic game by giving you an easy P.U and and easy to vassalize neighbour (Navarre)

-Easiest nation to unite home region (Portugal is a pushover with an unhelpful ally, England) and form a Late Game tag

-Easy acess into the New World and powerful colonialism

-Low A.E expension into N.Africa, worst case scenario you lose the land war but your superior navy protects you from getting invaded.

-More involved in religion (Conversion and papal points)

-Easy understanding of trade, collect in the end node of Genoa and steer from the New World

It is an easy playthrough that includes most game mechanics.

Potugal on the other hand should be a more tricky and niche playthrough for more experienced players who know what they are doing, know how trade mechanics work and know how to exploit centers of trade and light ship trade steering and want to play a different kind of colonial game, a tall colonial game.
Potugal cannot even afford advisors at the game start, and its missions and events push for an extremely difficult early war with Morocco that even if you bring Castile to do the work for you, chances are Castile is not even going to give you the land they occupy because they also have claims there.
How is that noob friendly at all?