Portugal Discovered all the new world! Others just came along...

[kolmy]

It's possible, however the general consensus of historians would not support that assertion. Most primary sources -- including Columbus' own writings -- identify him as being Genoese.

Given enough time, one can find internet sources to support almost any argument. Such sources are often of highly dubious credibility. A review of half a dozen credible sources strongly supports his Genoese birth as being most likely.

Noted historian Norman Davies calls him a "Genoese sailor" in his Europe: A History

The Encyclopaedia Britannica (known for being a reasonably accurate citation) identifies him as being " born between August 26 and October 31, 1451, Genoa [Italy]".

Most other credible secondary and tertiary sources concur. Some also mention the theory that he could be Portugese by birth, but most note that this is highly improbable.

I'm not suggesting that he was Spanish. I believe it highly likely that he was born Genoese (Tunch Khan's post is very interesting as to where in Genoese territory he originated), spent some period of time in his early adulthood in Portugal, and then became an agent of Spain for the remainder of his life (including the period during whch he made his voyages to the west).

Well, I support the portuguese theory (i'm portuguese and with the evidences that I've see). But everything in that time could be dubious. And exists theories about who discovered America that could be the Vikings, the Chinese, or the Portuguese.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Well, I support the portuguese theory (i'm portuguese and with the evidences that I've see). But everything in that time could be dubious. And exists theories about who discovered America that could be the Vikings, the Chinese, or the Portuguese.

or the Turkish.

 

[kolmy]

If Columbus was ever Portugese in heart, then he is a traitor to his country. He gave top secret Portugese exploration secrets to the Spanish. Anyway, Portugal never discovered the world, it just had convinent maps depicting the Americas and Indies... from the Chinese.

...?

Yes, the Chinese theory says that Zheng He as reach The Azores, the Portuguese could perfectly trade maps with them.

 

[kolmy]

or the Turkish.

This is true?

 

[Carmagnola]

Italian schools teach Columbus was Italian, Portuguese schools teach he was Portguguese...The funny thing is the man would likely be very puzzled by this debate on his nationality since the idea of nationalism was quite alien to the mind of people of this time.

Some categories of people (merchants, sailors, scholars) in those times traveled a lot, took up residence where they pleased (no real immigration laws), and spoke Latin or a patois of languages (as their education allowed) when traveling to other lands.

Why are we triying to pigeonhole a nationality on people who would not have understood the concept the way we do? Even centuries later, a general like Prinz Eugen was so cavalier about nationality as to use the signature "Eugenio von Savoy", in 3 languages.

As for Portugal, I understand the nationalistic sentiment, I really do, but as rich as it was, its influence on the grand scheme of European politics was not that of France, Spain, or even England during EU3 times. Partly because of shrewd choice to stay out of the mess, and partly because it objectively did not possess the muscle to back up a different stance. So, by and large, my personal opinion is that Portugal was well represented in EU2 and should remain comparable in EU3

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Italian schools teach Columbus was Italian, Portuguese schools teach he was Portguguese...The funny thing is the man would likely be very puzzled by this debate on his nationality since the idea of nationalism was quite alien to the mind of people of this time.

Some categories of people (merchants, sailors, scholars) in those times traveled a lot, took up residence where they pleased (no real immigration laws), and spoke Latin or a patois of languages (as their education allowed) when traveling to other lands.

Why are we triying to pigeonhole a nationality on people who would not have understood the concept the way we do? Even centuries later, a general like Prinz Eugen was so cavalier about nationality as to use the signature "Eugenio von Savoy", in 3 languages.

As for Portugal, I understand the nationalistic sentiment, I really do, but as rich as it was, its influence on the grand scheme of European politics was not that of France, Spain, or even England during EU3 times. Partly because of shrewd choice to stay out of the mess, and partly because it objectively did not possess the muscle to back up a different stance. So, by and large, my personal opinion is that Portugal was well represented in EU2 and should remain comparable in EU3

Indeed. This is a most salient point of all. The place of his birth, childhood, or early adult years is somewhat immaterial. The place he hang his hat when he came back from his voyages is what counts, and that place was the court of Ferdinand and Isabella. In Spain.

 

[kolmy]

Italian schools teach Columbus was Italian, Portuguese schools teach he was Portguguese...

My school says that he was italian.

 

[Casluerj]

Italian schools teach Columbus was Italian, Portuguese schools teach he was Portguguese...The funny thing is the man would likely be very puzzled by this debate on his nationality since the idea of nationalism was quite alien to the mind of people of this time.

Some categories of people (merchants, sailors, scholars) in those times traveled a lot, took up residence where they pleased (no real immigration laws), and spoke Latin or a patois of languages (as their education allowed) when traveling to other lands.

Why are we triying to pigeonhole a nationality on people who would not have understood the concept the way we do? Even centuries later, a general like Prinz Eugen was so cavalier about nationality as to use the signature "Eugenio von Savoy", in 3 languages.

As for Portugal, I understand the nationalistic sentiment, I really do, but as rich as it was, its influence on the grand scheme of European politics was not that of France, Spain, or even England during EU3 times. Partly because of shrewd choice to stay out of the mess, and partly because it objectively did not possess the muscle to back up a different stance. So, by and large, my personal opinion is that Portugal was well represented in EU2 and should remain comparable in EU3

Wonderful post...

You might be a brazilian with such intelligence (yeah... I want to be a crazy nationalist too ).

 

[kolmy]

Wonderful post...

You might be a brazilian with such intelligence (yeah... I want to be a crazy nationalist too ).

I'm surrouded by extremists (kidding)

 

[Tunch Khan]

This is true?

No I was merely referring to the pan-turkic propaganda that the Turks who crossed the Bering Straits became native Americans. It is true that the native American tribes both from the north and south America had settled there after a long voyage through the Bering Strait, but it would be irrational to classify them as Turks when the Turks began to emerge in history thousands of years after such voyages were completed.

On the other hand, Turks acquired the maps of the New World quite early and from various different sources following the naval battles with Spain, Genoa and Portugal (in the Indian Ocean) and were the first cartographers to chart the whole world including the Americas in great detail (Piri Reis-1513).

 

[Dairpo]

6) Columbus never spoke or read Italian. [Lionel Cecil Jane -- "[he] could not speak or write Italian." (Select Documents Illustrating the Four Voyages of Columbus. Hakluyt Society. London, 1930.)]

IIRC "Italian" referred to the langauge of Dante, Petrarch and Boccaccio: the dialect of Florence.

I do note that furter below when discussing de las Casas' you do point out that he didn't use Genovese (or whatever the proper name for that language is/was). Just a point of clarification that's all.

Cheers.

 

[El Greco]

I find it quite bizarre that in a forum like this, no one has any clue about the origins of Columbus when it's quite clear that he's Greek.

As I had already heard this theory, I always thought that this was greek extremist propaganda. In the same way that Napoleon was Greek as well. :rofl:

Anyway, me being a greek catholic originated from Chios, I suggest that you all incline in front of the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand son of Cristophe Colomb.

 

[Tzar Kalojan]

Portuguese sailer Cristovão Colombo discovered North America.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Gaijin de Moscu]

Interesting discussion on Columbus, and the Chios theory is tantalising.

I didn't really believe the prospectus, but I did take a picture of Columbus' house in Genova when I was there the other day.

 

[alvaro]

No I was merely referring to the pan-turkic propaganda that the Turks who crossed the Bering Straits became native Americans. It is true that the native American tribes both from the north and south America had settled there after a long voyage through the Bering Strait, but it would be irrational to classify them as Turks when the Turks began to emerge in history thousands of years after such voyages were completed.

On the other hand, Turks acquired the maps of the New World quite early and from various different sources following the naval battles with Spain, Genoa and Portugal (in the Indian Ocean) and were the first cartographers to chart the whole world including the Americas in great detail (Piri Reis-1513).

Actually I heard theories mentioning that the PiriReis had details of the new continent "apparently" not known at that time by spaniards or portugeses by birth or heart.

 

[daedalus]

Why is this thread not in the history forums?

:runs away:

 

[Tunch Khan]

Actually I heard theories mentioning that the PiriReis had details of the new continent "apparently" not known at that time by spaniards or portugeses by birth or heart.

Piri Reis states himself in his own handwriting on his famous map that he found the map of Columbus useful while charting Carribean area.

 

[Gaute65]

Portuguese sailer Cristovão Colombo discovered North America.
P

Nope, he was from Norway:

His book, "Christopher Columbus--A European from Norway?" suggests that Columbus was a Norwegian nobleman named Christopher Bonde who discovered America in 1477, not in 1492. Columbus actually undertook a voyage north of Iceland in 1477, according to the World Book Encyclopedia. Sannes argues that voyage could have reached Canada or New England 15 years befor

Link

 

[Brasidas]

I still think that he should first be offered as a leader to the "alien invaders" country, also featured in HoI2, activated as a choice B in an historical event. My link provides more substantial proof of the authenticity of this claim than a quote reliant upon the adventures of the relatives of Donald Duck, as cited by Crespo Portugal.

My suggestion would normally result in an historical outcome, as the AI would normally choose option A in the event. The leader would then default to Spain.

In the ahistorical case, ¢º¬ß« (for which Columbus is the anglicization), would offer the human player an interesting flavour for that game.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

A Mongol discovered America more than 20000 years ago. Then they conquered the known world only stopped because they wanted to be at a party. And then they were (and still are) supreme economic leaders of the mare yogurt market

Guess who will be a superpower in EU3 ?

How dare they monopolize the highly lucrative mare yogurt market!

And I guess China should be the most powerful nation then, after all, from 1453-1789 the Chinese economy was that of all of Europe combined...of course, it was mostly wasted. But that's not the point here! We are going just by which country was the richest/best economy.