Portugal 1.30 National Ideas Overhaul and feedback

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Not going to happen.

This game is close to the 'end of development' and Portugal already got a dedicated DLC not long ago, mark my words: they will not see any specific changes anymore in EU4. At most changes because of some other mechanic that get changed and that forces some of their mechanics / ideas / missions to be changed.

After Austria / HRE, Portugal/Spain are probably now last on the list to be looked at again.

"Dedicated dlc" haha, nice one...

Jokes and irony aside, yes. Sadly you are right, this is all just venting at this point. But maybe, just maybe, they will take this into consideration in EUV, and if not well at least the general public might learn a few things and cast some old stereotypes aside.

I think you misquoted.

I didn't, i meant to quote myself.

 

[Sete]

Not going to happen.

This game is close to the 'end of development' and Portugal already got a dedicated DLC not long ago, mark my words: they will not see any specific changes anymore in EU4. At most changes because of some other mechanic that get changed and that forces some of their mechanics / ideas / missions to be changed.

After Austria / HRE, Portugal/Spain are probably now last on the list to be looked at again.

I must have missed that dlc.
Was it before or after Golden Century?

It's not a out happening or not, it's about sending a message, and to correct erroneous assumptions people have about Portugal.

Also I enjoy doing these suggestions and it's a way for me to do some research and expand my knowledge.

I can easily mod the files to play as I want, even if does not happen.

But hopefully if EU V happens, some feedback of the Iberia players might go through.

 

[Sete]

One things that annoys me:

Portugal
Traditions:+15% Trade efficiency+25% Colonial range
Legacy of the Navigator

−33% Morale hit when losing a ship+5% Ship disengagement chance
Afonsine Ordinance

+10% Goods produced modifier
Feitorias

+10% Global trade power
Land before Faith

+15 Global settler increase
Encourage the Bandeirantes

+1 Merchant
Royal Absolutism

−15% Construction cost+0.50 Yearly absolutism
Royal Academy of Fortification, Artillery and Drawing

+10% Artillery combat ability+10% Fort defense
Ambition:

+20% Global tariffs



Galicia

Galician ideas
Traditions:−15% Light ship cost+1 Yearly navy tradition
The Way of St. James

+10% National tax modifier
Galicia la Bella

+20% Fort defense
Rein in the Cities

−10% Stability cost modifier
Galician Shipyards

+5% Ship durability
Santiago y Cierra!

+10% Morale of armies
Sailors of the Cantabrian Sea

−20% Morale hit when losing a ship
Irmandinos

+10% Infantry combat ability
Ambition:

+1 Merchant

What's wrong here?

 

[Xary Moft]

What's wrong here?

Personally after a discussion I had with a friend long time ago, we both came to the same conclusion, the fact that the majority of Galician ideas fit well on Portugal compared to the current idea set

 

[Sete]

I dont even give that many military buffs on my sugestions.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

What's wrong here?

"Galicia la Bella" being written in Italian, instead of actual Galician: "Galiza a Fermosa".

 

[Sete]

"Galicia la Bella" being written in Italian, instead of actual Galician: "Galiza a Fermosa".

And the fact that Galicia as an independent political entity has not existed since the 13th century, has better navy and military ideas than Portugal.

 

[Sete]

I'm quoting Bandua's post due to the relevance for the topic in hand.

I'm not forgeting that, but that doesn't seem to excuse why Portugal's colonial cappabilies were inherently inferior to the rest of the colonial empires.
By 1578, the Spanish dominions in the Americas reached from Florida to Argentina, while Portugal's dominion in the Americas was only part of the Brazilian coast, Portuguese overseas expansion in the 15th and 16th centuries consistent on conquering mostly isolated cities in the Indian Ocean.
Look at a 1598 map:
View attachment 589611


And this is why i believe what Portugal needs and still lacks is a stronger military and defensive cappabilies to preserve its independence from Spain.


Im going to require sources on that.
All the sources i've seen on the subject show that Portugal always had a bellow average GDP per capita in comparison to Western Europe, with the early 1500's (peak of the Portuguese empire in the Indian ocean) and late 1600's (found of Gold in Brazil) being the only brief exceptions that Portugal almost caught up.
View attachment 589612


No one is saying that Portuguese fans want a beefy Portugal, what I'm saying is that Portugal's strength in game is in the wrong places (colonial growth and trade, when it should be military quality and defense)


Because they don't deserve it, but they do deserve a stronger land army quality, which is what I'm advocating for.

 

[Sete]

A quick solution for AI Portugal should be removing Expansion Ideas from the AI choice, so Portugal does not colonize every single bit of free land from africa to Indonesia, and add offensive as second choice. Even if they dont pass kilwa, that should severely limit their expansion everywhere.

 

[Quimera]

@Bandua_of_Gallaecia
I will not talk about what is historically correct or what is biased, but I will talk about the vision of the game.
To talk about why Castilla is "op" militarily with 15% morale in its traditions, we should look at the relationships and events with the French, Ottomans and Austrians. The Ottomans are one of the strongest nations in the game and they will continue to be as long as the game passes, to stop them, the dev buffets Austria with 10% morale in their armies, not counting that they are the emperor and can get several vassals and PU , but it is also surrounded by Poland (their military ideas if they are op) and France with 20% as a second idea, for that they resort to Spain / Castile being their friend for events or missions, so a Spanish-Austrian alliance can face or deter the French and the Ottomans, the fact that France shares a border with Spain and Austria with the Ottomans, makes more than a possible alliance between those two nations because of Austria and Spain both of them rival France and the Ottomans.

It is also the fact that both Spain and France are fighting in the 30-year war and Spain will have to deal with the revolts in the Netherlands, they make Spain have to be more efficiently militarily from the beginning.

Portugal however, in their own way they are "isolated" from European conflicts, the military bonuses they could receive would be one more lurch if coupled with western technology and its military advances against the native nations of Africa and Asia. Since while the Spanish missions are more focused on colonizing America, the Portugal mission tree is more focused on Asia and Africa. For Portugal the greatest enemy that only this Spain have because they share a border, but Portugal can create very good alliances to dissuade them from attacking them. Spain due to her mission tree will have to deal with Great Britain and France in America, but Portugal will have "free pass" to Asia and Africa, at least it this is what I do and see in my campaigns.

The military armies of Portugal that triumphed against Castile in two wars being numerically inferior, passed in a time that is that of CK2 / 3, where you defeated the leader and you had the battle guaranteed.

Battle of Aljubarrota:
"By sunset, only one hour after the battle began, the Castilian position was indefensible. When the Castilian royal standard-bearer fell, the already demoralized troops in the rear thought their King was dead and started to flee in panic; in a matter of moments, this became a general rout where Juan of Castile had to run at full speed to save his life, leaving behind not only common soldiers but also many still dismounted noblemen. "

Here another example with the battle of Valverde:
"Nuno Álvares Pereira himself, seeing the banner of the Grand Master of Santiago, fought his way through the Castilian army until encountering him, and after a brief duel, the Grand Master fell mortally wounded. With his fall and the overthrow of his standard, the Castilian army demoralized and was soon broken and in disorder, and could not stop the Portuguese attack, being quickly and totally defeated."

This battel may work fine in CK but not in EU, so buff the armies of Portugal due to those events doesn't seem very viable. The majority of the killed were due to the bad retreat by demoralized troops, not because they were killing machines with 3 kills by every one Portuguese's soldier.

 

[Sete]

It's not about "killing machines", but excellent application of Infantry tactics that defeated a numerically superior foe.
Focusing on just one moment of the battle to prove your point is misleading.

If that's your justification for not giving ICA to Portugal then no country should have Military bonus on traditions.
Or were English soldiers killing machines to justify having 10% ICA?

North Africa has Morocco, that has the same tech level, not to mention that the states from east africa and asia were not technological backward nations.

In game terms, without babysitting Castille, Portugal does squat in North Africa, if allied with England, France just farts in their general direction and they are dead, Kilwa and their 2 allies in the region just wreck Portugal navy, and not gonna even mention India where the local powers can just easily roll over Portugal.

That's why I argue that Fort defense should come as second idea, and Legacy of the Navigator should buff the Navy durability, and third idea should buff the Navy a tad more, while having ICA in traditions.


Valverde:

Nuno Álvares Pereira then ordered his army to form a square with the baggage on the center, and impetuously crossed the Castilian forces, which attempted to oppose him. Upon reaching the river shore, Nuno Álvares Pereira ordered his rearguard to protect the baggage and fight the enemy, while with his vanguard he crossed over. The Castilian forces on the opposite shore, numbering about 10,000 men, unsuccessfully oppose their landing.After placing the Portuguese vanguard in position, defending the shore from the Castilians, Nuno Álvares Pereira again crossed the river to reach his rearguard, which was under a rain of arrows launched from the Castilian side. The Constable of Portugal noticing that the Castilians had used all of their projectiles, ordered an attack. Nuno Álvares Pereira himself, seeing the banner of the Grand Master of Santiago, fought his way through the Castilian army until encountering him, and after a brief duel, the Grand Master fell mortally wounded. With his fall and the overthrow of his standard, the Castilian army demoralized and was soon broken and in disorder, and could not stop the Portuguese attack, being quickly and totally defeated.

Aljubarrota:
The initiative of starting the battle was with the Castilian side. The French allied heavy cavalry charged in full strength, in order to disrupt order in the enemy lines. Even before they could get into contact with the Portuguese infantry, however, they were already disorganized. Just as at Crécy, the defending archers and crossbowmen, along with the ditches and pits, did most of the work. The losses of the cavalry were heavy and the effect of its attack completely null. Support from the Castilian rear was late to come and the knights that did not perish in the combat were made prisoners and sent to the Portuguese rear.

At this point the main Castilian force entered the battle. Their line was enormous, due to the great number of soldiers. In order to get to the Portuguese line, the Castilians became disorganized, squeezing into the space between the two creeks that protected the flanks. At this time, the Portuguese reorganized. The vanguard of Nuno Álvares Pereira divided into two sectors. John of Portugal ordered the archers and crossbowmen to retire, while his rear troops advanced through the space opened between the vanguards. With all his troops needed at the front, there were no men available to guard the knight prisoners; John of Portugal ordered them to be killed on the spot and proceeded to deal with the approaching Castilians.

Advancing uphill with the sun on their backs, squashed between the funnelling Portuguese defensive works and their own advancing rear, and under a heavy rain of English longbowmen's arrows shot from behind the Portuguese line and crossbow quarrels from behind both the Sweethearts' and the Honeysuckle wings on their flanks, the Castilians fought to win the day. The Castilian knights in the main body were forced to dismount and break in half their four-metre-long lances in order to join the constricted melèe alongside their infantry.

At this stage of the battle, both sides sustained heavy losses, especially on the "Ala dos Namorados" where the Portuguese students became renowned for holding off the heavily armoured knights of the Castilian wings who, still on horseback, attempted to flank the Portuguese lines. A similar attack was more successful on the right "Honeysuckle" flank, though only briefly and late in the fight.

By sunset, only one hour after the battle began, the Castilian position was indefensible. When the Castilian royal standard-bearer fell, the already demoralized troops in the rear thought their King was dead and started to flee in panic; in a matter of moments this became a general rout where Juan of Castile had to run at full speed to save his life, leaving behind not only common soldiers but also many still dismounted noblemen.

The Portuguese pursued them down the hill and, with the battle won, killed many more while there was still light enough to see the enemy.

My personal favourite from one of Portugal less known Commanders:

Battle of Cochin (1504) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[EarlKonrad]

From Portugal's pre-release DD: "Portugal is clearly designed to be a colonial power, geared towards creating a global empire and then benefit from its trade. The colonial range bonus will let it exploit the furthest reaches of the Indies and the boost to trade power will be very helpful in letting it compete in these farflung markets where it can’t count on dominating every port. Throw in the extra merchant, and by mid-game, Portugal will be a trade empire even if she never expands out of her cozy home on the continent."

You see, reason why the devs still don't give them military bonuses on their NI is because that doesn't match their vision for what Portugal strengths should be on the game. Rather than a military powerhouse like France or Spain, Portugal is supposed to be a mixture of colonial and trade Empire with ship bonuses to help them expand west. Lastly, they were also designed as an introductory nation for players wanting to learn the colonization game (can't find the quote right now).

You can fantasize about what you want for a game all they long but if your vision don't match that of the developers than yours has no chance of being implemented. And again, we have a suggestion forum for this sort of discussion.

Europa Universalis IV Developer diary 18 – Sail away with me!

Welcome to the 18th development diary on Europa Universalis. This time we focus on Portugal, one of the more unlikely empires in history, a country whose sailors and explorers were so instrumental in ensuring that Europe would be the dominant...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Sete]

Edit: It seems the post I replied to is gone.

But the buffs (and I'm using this word liberally since I'm actually taking away artillery combat ability) dont turn Portugal into a military powerhouse, not even close, just gives them a more historical flavour.

Fact remains that the Trade Empire came into existence by force in the Indian Ocean, and there remained by force until its eventual decline, again by force.

The focus is still centres of trade, Thassalocracy, but with a better chance of holding to them, while removing the Castille crutch from the early gameplay.

If you read my previous posts, I already asked to have this moved to the sugestions forums, having posted here by mistake.

And pre release was a few years ago. The game has changed quite a bit meanwhile.

And I disagree that Portugal should be the to go Nation for a Colonization game, but that's my personal feeling in the matter, it will still have the age of discovery bonus.

On other note the Doctrine and Flagship buffs are on point with the method of military expansion used, but then again I argue that fort defense as the bare minimum change should be part of the feitoria idea.

I was shocked to see Portugal with late game military ideas when their strength was obviously in the early game (considering you unlock the NI quite early).

My "fantasy" wont actually change anything in the meta game, except hold their own a bit better, they will still get trounced by anyone with decent military ideas.

And to add, the Royal Academy of Fortification, Artillhery and Drawing of 1790, was originally founded in 1640 as Artillery and Drawing School.

1640 coincidentally is in the same time frame I propose for the NI that replaces the merchant for a military idea, and historically the start of the Portuguese Restoration war vs Spain (with ongoing conflict vs the Dutch, English up to 1640, and allies overseas).

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

To talk about why Castilla is "op" militarily with 15% morale in its traditions,

I'm not saying Castille is OP. They deserve the strength they get (except from the missions, that's just arbitrary and excessive)
What I'm saying is that Portugal is very underpowered.

France with 20% as a second idea,

France also deserves its military strength, just no so early.

for that they resort to Spain / Castile being their friend for events or missions, so a Spanish-Austrian alliance can face or deter the French and the Ottomans,

Unlike the artificial and ahistorical Portugal-Castile historical friends, the Castile-Austria alliance is completely historical and fundamental to represent the European balance of power.

It is also the fact that both Spain and France are fighting in the 30-year war and Spain will have to deal with the revolts in the Netherlands, they make Spain have to be more efficiently militarily from the beginning.

And like I said, they deserve it.

Portugal however, in their own way they are "isolated" from European conflicts,

Except, they weren't in real life.
Most major European conflicts spilled into the Iberian peninsula in the form of a Spanish (and often French) -Portuguese (and often English) confrontations

the military bonuses they could receive would be one more lurch if coupled with western technology

What Western technology?
Western technology is INFERIOR to Asian technology in the early 1500's, which is when Portugal is supposed to be conquering land in India.

Portugal mission tree is more focused on Asia and Africa.

And good luck achieving historical conquests within a reasonably historical timeframe...

but Portugal can create very good alliances to dissuade them from attacking them.

Ahistorical.

Portugal will have "free pass" to Asia and Africa, at least it this is what I do and see in my campaigns.

Ahistorical and anthitetical to the core Portuguese playthrough.
Playing Portugal should be about carefully managing your overextension and never going all-in overseas.
One misstep in Asia or Africa, means doom in Europe.
One Alcácer Quibir gone wrong and you get P.U'd by Spain.

The military armies of Portugal that triumphed against Castile in two wars being numerically inferior, passed in a time that is that of CK2 / 3

2 wars? Seriously?
Portugal triumphed against Castile/Spain in dozens of battles throughout the entire Eu4 timeframe. Not just muh Aljubarrota. I never even mentioned Aljubarrota as an argument in my posts.

This battel may work fine in CK but not in EU, so buff the armies of Portugal due to those events doesn't seem very viable.

No one is asking for buffs on the basis of those two events.

 

[Sete]

My last bit of feedback on this, I will be going to CK3 soon:
At the very least, change some of the ideas around:

Portugal
Traditions:
+15% Trade efficiency
+25% Colonial range

Legacy of the Navigator
−33% Morale hit when losing a ship
+5% Ship disengagement chance

Feitorias
+10% Global trade power

Overseas Empire
+10% Fort defense

Land before Faith
+15 Global settler increase
+10% Goods produced modifier

Artillery and Drawing School
+10% Artillery combat ability

Encourage the Bandeirantes
+1 Merchant

Royal Absolutism
−15% Construction cost
+0.50 Yearly absolutism

Ambition:
+20% Global tariffs


Changes made:
Remove Afonsine Ordinances and add Overseas Empire (placeholder name) and add fort defense on that Idea.

List of Portuguese colonial forts - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Add 10% goods modifier on Land before faith.

Artillery and drawing school was founded in 1640, so having it earlier still makes sense in its first iteration.

The idea set bonus modifiers remains exactly the same, just changes places for a more organic progression.