Portugal 1.30 National Ideas Overhaul and feedback

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Sete

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To expand on the Order of Christ Nobility estate for Portugal.

Choosing this estate will give your leaders +1 shock land / naval, and let's be greedy 5% morale vs heathens and heretics
In the other hand it should remove 5% trade efficiency and 10% manpower.

The Knights chosen to lead the Armadas, most famously Afonso de Albuqurque, were hardened crusaders from the north African theater, and upon reaching India had to pay their man at arms from their own pockets or by right of pillage on conquered towns. During the monsoon season most of the soldiers were left to their own devices and luck with no payment often serving as mercenaries for local powers.
 
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BlingSon

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To add to how Castille is way too strong in mil. Ideas compared to portugal, wasnt most of the famed great spanish armada actually portugese built ships? (Not sure here, correct me if im wrong)
 
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ImperatorRoman

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To add to how Castille is way too strong in mil. Ideas compared to portugal, wasnt most of the famed great spanish armada actually portugese built ships? (Not sure here, correct me if im wrong)

I cant find anything that explicitly says so, but given that Portugal was ruled by Spain in the Iberian Union during the year the Armada sailed it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least some Portuguese-built ships in the Armada.
 

Sete

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The flagship of the Armada was Portuguese.
When the Kingdom of Portugal came under the rule of King Philip II of Spain (Philip I of Portugal), in 1580, the Portuguese had just finished building a large galleon named São Martinho. She was known by Castilians as San Martín. At the time of forming the Spanish Armada, São Martinho was found to be the best of the fleet and was chosen as the flagship of the Armada commander-in-chief, Duke of Medina Sidonia.

The São Martinho fought, virtually isolated, for one hour, 15 English galleons.

Squadron of Portugal
Twelve ships comprising ten galleons and two zabras (total seamen 1,293; total soldiers 3,330);

São Martinho (48 guns). Known in Spanish as San Martin and in English as Saint Martin. Flagship of the commander-in-chief (Fleet Capitana), the Duke of Medina Sidonia and Maestre Francisco Arias de Bobadilla, the senior army officer. (São Martinho had an overall length of about 180 feet (55 m) with a beam of about 40 feet (12 m). She carried the aforementioned 48 heavy guns on two enclosed gun decks, plus multiple smaller weapons).

São João (de Portugal). (50 guns). Vice-flagship (Fleet Almiranta). Known in Spanish as San Juan de Portugal and in English as Saint John of Portugal. Captained by Recalde (captain of this ship later in the expedition).

São Marcos (33 guns).

São Filipe (40 guns).

São Luis (38 guns).

São Mateus (34 guns). Known in Spanish as San Mateo and in English as Saint Matthew.

Santiago (24 guns).

Florencia (52 guns). The Tuscan-built galleon San Francisco (São Francisco in Portuguese) was appropriated, renamed and integrated within the squadron of Portuguese galleons.

Older Portuguese galleons like the São Lucas and the São Rafael had already been withdrawn from service; one was still in the squadron at Lisbon, but was too small and too rotted to accompany the Squadron), and she was substituted by the Florencia.

Most of the ships lost in Philip II's expedition of 1588 had been armed merchantmen, while the core of the Armada — the galleons of the Squadron of Portugal of the Armada del Mar Oceano (Atlantic Fleet) — survived their voyage home and docked in Spain's Atlantic ports for a refit, where they lay for months, vulnerable to attack.

And to finish the conveniently forgotten English Armada.

 
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If Paradox agreed to all of your suggestions But on one condition. Portugals new map colour is Westphalian Yellow do you accept?
Definitely.
"Portuguese colours" in that era were mostly centered around White (The flag) and Blue (The military uniforms, and sometimes the flag). Westphalian yellow is so pale that might as well be white.

It would still make more sense than the current meme green, which only started being associated with Portugal after 1910 with the adoption of their modern flag (Although, sometimes it might be seen on royal standards, since it was the colour of both the order of Aviz and the house of Braganza)
 
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Sete

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Definitely.
"Portuguese colours" in that era were mostly centered around White (The flag) and Blue (The military uniforms, and sometimes the flag). Westphalian yellow is so pale that might as well be white.

It would still make more sense than the current meme green, which only started being associated with Portugal after 1910 with the adoption of their modern flag (Although, sometimes it might be seen on royal standards, since it was the colour of both the order of Aviz and the house of Braganza)

Just follows the trend of EU IV Portugal being a nation inspired by meme history.
 
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Definitely.
"Portuguese colours" in that era were mostly centered around White (The flag) and Blue (The military uniforms, and sometimes the flag). Westphalian yellow is so pale that might as well be white.

It would still make more sense than the current meme green, which only started being associated with Portugal after 1910 with the adoption of their modern flag (Although, sometimes it might be seen on royal standards, since it was the colour of both the order of Aviz and the house of Braganza)

What's next? White France? Purple Ottoman? Prussian Blue Prussia????? /s
 
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Definitely.
"Portuguese colours" in that era were mostly centered around White (The flag) and Blue (The military uniforms, and sometimes the flag). Westphalian yellow is so pale that might as well be white.

It would still make more sense than the current meme green, which only started being associated with Portugal after 1910 with the adoption of their modern flag (Although, sometimes it might be seen on royal standards, since it was the colour of both the order of Aviz and the house of Braganza)
5F3F2611-B659-49A7-9EEF-13602273A3BF.gif
This one?
 

Sete

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FlagDateUseDescription
PortugueseFlag1095.svg 1095–1143A blue cross on a white (or silver) field (hypothetical - hypothesis proposed in the 17th century).
PortugueseFlag1143.svg 1143–1185A blue cross with five blue escutcheons each charged with an undetermined number of bezants on a white field (hypothetical).
PortugueseFlag1185.svg 1185–1248Five blue escutcheons each charged with an undetermined number of bezants on a white field (first standard and historic royal coat of arms).
PortugueseFlag1248.svg 1248–1385Five blue escutcheons each charged with an undetermined number of bezants on a white field. Border: red with yellow castles (number not fixed).
PortugueseFlag1385.svg 1385–1485Five blue escutcheons each charged with an undetermined number of bezants on a white field. Border: red with yellow castles and a green cross of the Order of Aviz.
PortugueseFlag1485.svg 1485–1495Five blue escutcheons each charged with 5 bezants on a white field. Border: red with 8 yellow castles.
Flag of Portugal (1495).svg 1495–1521
Flag of Portugal (1521).svg 1521–1578
Flag of Portugal (1578).svg 1578–1640
Flag of Portugal (1616).svg 1616–1640Putative flag
Flag of Portugal (1640).svg 1640–1667
Flag of Portugal (1667).svg 1667–1706
Flag of Portugal (1707).svg 1706–1750
1826–1830
Flag of Portugal (1750).svg 1750–1816
Flag of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and Algarves.svg 1816–1826
Flag of Portugal (1830).svg 1830–1910Used on landVertical bicolour blue-white. Proportion of the fields: 1:1.
Flag Portugal sea (1830).svg 1830–1910Used at seaVertical bicolour blue-white. Proportion of the fields: 1:2.
 
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Sete

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Here is a quick preview on the ideas I'm working on:

I'm quite happy with these one, and I will expand on them after work.

Traditions:
+10% Infantry Combat Ability
+25% Colonial range

Legacy of the Navigator
−33% Morale hit when losing a ship
+5% Ship hit points

Feitorias
+10% Fort defense
+10% Global trade power

India Armadas
+1 Artillery
+1 Leader without upkeep


Spice Trade Monopoly
+15 Trade Steering


Ordenancas
+30% Army drill gain modifier

Bandeirantes
+15 Global settler increase


Pombaline Reformes
-15% Construction Cost


Ambition
+20% Global tariffs
 
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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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Traditions:
+10% Infantry Combat Ability
+25% Colonial range
Acceptable

Legacy of the Navigator
−33% Morale hit when losing a ship
+5% Ship hit points
Acceptable

Feitorias
+10% Fort defense
+10% Global trade power
Acceptable, although a discount to charter company investments would fall more in line with the Portuguese playthrough of establishing Feitorias along their trade routes, instead of a generic Global Trade Power.

India Armadas
+1 Artillery
+1 Leader without upkeep
Acceptable, although i do not see the rationale behind the leader without upkeep. I don't see Portugal as being particularly renowned on the art of having many great leaders, there are a couple of outstanding ones but most of them they are simply forgettable.
I'm sure there is a historical justification for this (as usual) but i don't see the gameplay one.

Spice Trade Monopoly
+15 Trade Steering

Acceptable, although i would rework that name to something a bit less railroading. 10 out of 10 times you will not have achieved such monopoly by the time you gain this idea.

Ordenancas
+30% Army drill gain modifier
Here, i am divided.
I am very critical about giving discipline or anything related to drill to Portugal, due to the appalling disorganisation and neglected state of their military at the start of the 7 years war and the Napoleonic war.
On the other hand, after the war started they did get back on their feet, reorganized remarkably fast and formed a formidable fighting force praised by both English and Prussian officers alike by the war's ending, so "drill gain" might actually not be as unrealistic as it seems.

But if this is what its supposed to represent, then maybe move this to the last or second-to-last idea, since those are late game events.

Bandeirantes
+15 Global settler increase
Acceptable.

Pombaline Reformes
-15% Construction Cost
Acceptable, but have you considered maybe a devastation reduction modifier instead? It feels a bit more unique to the Pombaline reformation, than simply a construction discount (it was mostly about rebuilding what was destroyed by the earthquake, and in a more organized and resilient way).

Ambition
+20% Global tariffs
Acceptable.

Overall 9/10, would definitely make me stop bitching about their ideas.
 
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Cheers for the feedback.

I'll add the historical aspect this afternoon after work (on my lunch break atm.)

Just to add quickly the leader without upkeep goes hand to hand with the Order of Christ estate that I proposed, so you have a Leader on the Asia side of things let's say, like a Viceroy like Francisco de Almeida and Albuquerque, and then you can have a Conquistador or General for Europe and North Africa, due to the Thassalocratic nature of the Portuguese Empire. Also Portugal had a lot of Nobility, knighted on the North African theater.

I need to read a bit more about Pombal and his reforms, but want to focus on his economic and development policies, I felt like buildings, or reconstruction would help on that.

About the army drill modifier, I'm also avoiding discipline and morale, I tought about Portuguese Tercos with -15% shock damage and 5% fire damage (restoration war) but I felt like this one would go in line with the D.Joao IV army restructure that become the basis for a professional army in Portugal, and also go with the player decision if having a professional army or just drop the maintenance bar for profit, while also keeping in line with the events of the napoleonic wars where a rag tag band of recruits quickly became a force that in the words of the English generals was at par with any other european army.
 
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Sete

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Without further ado let's have a look at the last set of suggested NI.
I'm quite happy with this set, if I might say so myself, it's not overpowered, and it follows the historical path, development and ambitions of Portugal.

Traditions: Why I changed them from the first proposed set? The first proposed set was focused on the house of Burgundy, while the second one is on the House of Aviz which has produced numerous prominent figures in both European and global history, including Prince Henry the Navigator, King Manuel I of Portugal, and Holy Roman Empress Isabella of Portugal. Numerous Aviz dynasts have also claimed thrones or titles across Europe, including King Peter V of Aragon and John, Prince of Antioch.

Colonial Range is self explanatory, Madeira and Azores were discovered and colonized under the patronage of Henry the Navigator before 1444.

Now on to the controversial one.
ICA:
Portuguese military organisation in the late fourteenth and early fifteenth
centuries:
From 1380 to 1415 fundamental developments occurred in the Portuguese way of war. As
well as a move in the theatre of operations from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa, we see shifts in the construction of castles, in tactical paradigms and in the composition of
armies. While some changes were the result of the intensity of warfare between Portugal and Castile after 1369, others were made possible by the treaty of peace between the same kingdoms in 1411, allowing Portuguese martial reorganisation to take place without external pressure.

The early fifteenth century saw the introduction by João I of measures designed to
improve the operational efficiency of the royal army. These included the designation of a permanent number of 3200 ‘lances’ (mounted men-at-arms) to constitute the back-bone of his army. Five hundred of these lances were provided by the major vassals of the monarch. A further 2360 corresponded to the lower-ranking vassals of the king, who were capable of mustering smaller retinues, and to individually summoned knights. The remaining 340 lances were the responsibility of the military orders.

The Order of Christ, created in 1319 by King Dinis (1279–1325) from the ashes of the Templars, and the Order of Santiago would provide 100 lances each. The Order of Avis (founded in 1176) was required to provide 80 lances, while the Hospitallers were assigned the task of contributing 60 further lances.The effectives also included men-at-arms recruited from towns and villages within the vast domains of these powerful institutions and under their jurisdiction and authority.

The Portuguese king also sought to improve the efficiency of the royal army by regulating how soldiers were mobilised and paid. In the early fifteenth century, João sought to abandon the model of payment based on the allocation of quantias ‒ wages paid yearly in money, lands or revenue ‒ which had been prevalent since the beginning of the fourteenth century, along with the corresponding obligation that the person who received such monies or lands should mobilise a given number of lances proportional to the value of the quantia.João replaced this model with a salary which was directly proportional to the required days of service, similar to contemporary English and French systems.During the Ceuta expedition, we thus find Portuguese men-at-arms serving for 700 Portuguese pounds a month and foot soldiers for 400.
These reforms concentrated mainly on the military contribution of the nobility, which included not only men-at-arms but also an unspecified number of foot soldiers (perhaps two or three for each lance), and also on the contribution of the military orders. But the crown had other important military resources. For example, there were the urban militias.
Divided into cavalry and infantry forces and composed of men armed and equipped according to status, these militias had played an important role in previous centuries, particularly during the reconquista. Although by the early fifteenth century the militias had become less important, they continued to be an indispensable element in Portuguese royal armies. Particularly significant were the militias of the most populous cities:
Lisbon, Santarém and Coimbra.

Towns also supplied crossbowmen, organised through the conto (‘fixed number’). The system of the besteiros do conto (‘the fixed number of crossbowmen’) was created by King Dinis in the late thirteenth century. By 1421–2 it had grown to 5000 men, drawn from about 300 recruitment units spread throughout the kingdom, as is revealed in the charter in which João I and his son and heir, Prince Duarte, remodelled the number of men which each of those units was compelled to mobilise. This is one of the most interesting and original features of Portuguese medieval military organisation, for it gave the
monarch a fixed and predetermined number of combatants from a quasi-professionalised regime with its own command structure. These crossbowmen were well trained, well equipped with good weapons and a fixed amount of ammunition, and were kept at a high degree of readiness so that they could be summoned quickly whenever their services were needed, including naval and overseas campaigns such as the expedition to Ceuta.

The most significant change in the way war was waged occurred on the battlefield.
Pitched battles such as Atoleiros in 1384 and Aljubarrota in 1385 ‒ both impressive Portuguese victories over Castilian armies ‒ were characterised by the application of the same tactical models which English armies had developed during the first phase of the Hundred Years War and which had assured them of success at Crécy and Poitiers (and which were to give them victory at Agincourt). These key strategic and tactical improvements consisted of increased attention to the terrain and the ways in which it might be used to good effect against the enemy by taking advantage of natural obstacles and, where necessary, reinforcing them with artificial obstructions and traps. This use of terrain was aimed at disrupting the enemy charge and breaking the momentum of the attack. When placed to protect the wings, these obstructions could also prevent flanking manoeuvres and compel the opponent to narrow a frontal attack. Another major innovation was the extensive use of archers, especially in the Portuguese case crossbowmen, placed mainly on the wings, a tactical solution which made any offensive manoeuvre even more risky and damaging, as happened at both Atoleiros and Aljubarrota.
The key ingredient in the success of these tactical formations rested on having warriors willing to defend every inch of ground, and who could maintain discipline and cohesion when facing the advance and violent clash of the enemy charge. That was why the foot soldiers drawn up in the vanguard and on the wings often had dismounted men-at-
arms intermingled with them. Here they boosted motivation and discipline and prevented the flight of the infantry even when under serious threat; these men-at-arms also assisted in absorbing an enemy’s offensive manoeuvres and in launching counter-attacks.These were the main tactical principles that, thanks to the contact with English allies in the 1380s, were practised for the first time and with astonishing results at Atoleiros and repeated even more spectacularly at Aljubarrota by Nuno Álvares Pereira, the Portuguese constable. He was undoubtedly one of the most brilliant and successful generals of his time.

+10% Infantry Combat Ability
+25% Colonial range

Legacy of the Navigator

The success of the India nau depended on 15th-century innovations in Portuguese shipbuilding that greatly improved the seaworthiness and longevity of the ship. Notable among these were the use of iron nails (rather than wooden pegs) to hold planks, the mixing of lead in the seams, and a caulking technique that improved upon traditional oakum with 'galagala' paste (a mixture of oakum, lime and olive oil, producing a kind of putty that could be pressed between the planks). Hulls were amply coated in pitch and pine tar (imported in bulk amounts from northern Germany), giving the India naus their famous (and, to some observers, sinister) dark tone.

−33% Morale hit when losing a ship
+5% Ship hit points


Feitorias

A Portuguese trading post, usually fortified and built in coastal areas along the West and East African coasts, Indian Ocean and Brazil, from 1445 onward. It served simultaneously as market, warehouse, navigation support and customs, and was governed by a feitor (factor) to dominate the local trade with the Portuguese kingdom (and thence to Europe).

+10% Fort defense
+10% Global trade power

India Armadas

Naval artillery was the single greatest advantage the Portuguese held over their rivals in the Indian Ocean – indeed over most other navies – and the Portuguese crown spared no expense in procuring and producing the best naval guns European technology permitted.

King John II of Portugal, while still a prince in 1474, is often credited for pioneering the introduction of a reinforced deck on the old Henry-era caravel to allow the mounting of heavy guns. In 1489, he introduced the first standardized teams of trained naval gunners (bombardeiros) on every ship, and development of naval tactics that maximized broadside cannonades rather than the rush-and-grapple of Medieval galleys.

The Portuguese crown appropriated the best cannon technology available in Europe, particularly the new, more durable and far more accurate bronze cannon developed in Central Europe, replacing the older, less accurate wrought-iron cannon. By 1500, Portugal was importing vast volumes of copper and cannon from northern Europe, and had established itself as the leading producer of advanced naval artillery in its own right. Being a crown industry, cost considerations did not curb the pursuit of the best quality, best innovations and best training. The crown paid wage premiums and bonuses to lure the best European artisans and gunners (mostly German) to advance the industry in Portugal.

In this respect, the Portuguese spearheaded the evolution of modern naval warfare, moving away from the Medieval warship, a carrier of armed men, aiming for the grapple, towards the modern idea of a floating artillery piece dedicated to resolving battles by gunnery alone.

For the aristocracy, the expansionist and warlike policy initiated in
Northern Morocco meant, mainly for the noblemen pertaining to secondary
lineages as well as for the second sons, better opportunities to enrichment
and social promotion. Indeed, due to the permanent situation of war,
exacerbated by the old religious antagonism between Christians and Muslims, these men could enhance the honour of their families and also their revenue, through the favours granted by the king as payment for their military
achievements and also the sacks and pillages of the Moroccan populations.
Moreover, the organization of the strongholds that were eventually conquered would require the settlement of a number of military and administrative posts, and, in the event of a significant territorial conquest, they could also dream of the possibility of building land domains.

+1 Artillery
+1 Leader without upkeep


Spice Trade Monopoly

By the year 1511, the Portuguese were in control of the spice trade of the Malabar coast of India and Ceylon. Until the end of the 16th century, their monopoly on the spice trade to India was exceptionally profitable for the Portuguese. The main product brought back to Lisbon was black pepper.

+15 Trade Steering


Ordenancas
The Ordenanças (meaning literally "Ordinances" in Portuguese) were a militia-type organization that existed in Portugal and in some parts of the Portuguese Empire (especially in Brazil), between the 16th and the 19th centuries.
After some failed attempts made earlier, the Ordenanças were instituted by King Sebastian of Portugal on 10 December 1570. They were the first country-wide system of conscription in Portugal and thus are considered the ancestor of the future Portuguese national army.

They were organized in territorial captaincies (capitanias), covering the area of a city, town or municipality and included several companies. Each captaincy was under charge of a captain-major (capitão-mor), appointed by the respective municipal councils or, in areas where an alcaide (castle governor) existed, he assumed that role. Therefore, the organization and command of the Ordenanças usually fell to the most notable local residents of each region.

The base of the Ordenanças were the companies of 250 men. Each company was headed by a captain, assisted by an ensign (alferes), a sergeant, a marshal (meirinho) and a scrivener. It was divided in 10 squads, each one headed by a corporal (cabo de esquadra).

For King Sebastian's Morocco Campaign of 1578, the Ordenanças mobilized 32 companies with a total of around 8000 men, constituting four terços of the Portuguese expeditionary army.

+30% Army drill gain modifier

Bandeirantes

Long story short, Gold rush.
+15 Global settler increase


Pombaline Reformes

Pombal secured his preeminence through his decisive management of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, one of the deadliest earthquakes in history; he maintained public order, organized relief efforts, and supervised the capital's reconstruction in the Pombaline architectural style.

-15% Construction Cost


Ambition
+20% Global tariffs
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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Do you know what's being biased?
To add on to this with the most relevant example of all:

Do you know what is being biased?
Giving Protestantism +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline, and giving Reformed +10% Morale while Catholicism does not have a single military quality buff whatsoever and only have quantity ones... DESPITE: The Catholic League being the outnumbered side in the 30 years war AND still loosing less men than the Protestant League.
If anything, the Catholic side was on the side of quality, and the Protestant on the side of quantity.
 
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Maldazar

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Not going to happen.

This game is close to the 'end of development' and Portugal already got a dedicated DLC not long ago, mark my words: they will not see any specific changes anymore in EU4. At most changes because of some other mechanic that get changed and that forces some of their mechanics / ideas / missions to be changed.

After Austria / HRE, Portugal/Spain are probably now last on the list to be looked at again.
 
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EarlKonrad

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To add on to this with the most relevant example of all:

Do you know what is being biased?
Giving Protestantism +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline, and giving Reformed +10% Morale while Catholicism does not have a single military quality buff whatsoever and only have quantity ones... DESPITE: The Catholic League being the outnumbered side in the 30 years war AND still loosing less men than the Protestant League.
If anything, the Catholic side was on the side of quality, and the Protestant on the side of quantity.

I think you misquoted.