Portugal 1.30 National Ideas Overhaul and feedback

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Hello! once again I'm here to suggest changes to Portugal National ideas, that remain subpar, and do not accurately represent the path the Kingdom followed during its rise and eventual decline during the game time frame. I have been doing research, focusing not only in the military but also in the social and economic aspect of Portugal history, and as such i will try to present an unbiased set of national ideas, with linked sources to back it up.

Portugal, like his Iberian neighbors, was a kingdom forged in the fires of Reconquista, achieving his current borders with the definitive capture of the Algarve in 1249, 195 years before the start date present of the game. this gave ample time to Portugal develop its infrastructure, economy, while the rest of Iberia engaged on the Reconquista, finally ending in 1492.

During this time many Kings left their mark, especially King Dinis where he advanced the interests of the Portuguese merchants, and set up by mutual agreement a fund called the Bolsa de Comércio, the first documented form of marine insurance in Europe, approved on 10 May 1293. Always concerned with development of the country's infrastructure, he encouraged the discovery and exploitation of sulphur, silver, tin and iron mines and organised the export of excess production of agricultural crops, salt, and salted fish to England, Flanders, and France.

This can justify the increased trade efficiency tradition, and despite my previous issues with the choice, it can be easily justifiable.

Afonso IV legacy was granting public funding to raise a proper commercial fleet and ordered the first Portuguese maritime explorations, which can justify the exploring range tradition.

Now moving to the 1st Idea, Legacy of the Navigator.
Henry is regarded as the patron of Portuguese exploration. Under his direction, a new and much lighter ship was developed, the caravel, which could sail further and faster, and, above all, was highly maneuverable and could sail much nearer the wind, or "into the wind". This made the caravel largely independent of the prevailing winds. With the caravel, Portuguese mariners explored rivers and shallow waters as well as the open ocean with wide autonomy. In fact, the invention of the caravel was what made Portugal poised to take the lead in transoceanic exploration.
I will leave Morale hit when losing a ship, for romantic reasons, sailing the unknown required nerves of steel, and its fitting in my opinion.
But now the caravel should have a special mention here. i have decided to go with the Square Rigged Caravel, and as such give Portugal Light Ship Combat Ability 20% (before you huff and puff check the nations with LS CA)

Towards the end of the 15th century, the Portuguese developed a larger version of the caravel, bearing a forecastle and sterncastle – though not as high as those carracks, which would have made it unweatherly – but most distinguishable for its square-rigged foremast, and three other masts bearing lateen rig. In this form it was referred to in Portuguese as a "round caravel" (caravela redonda) as in Iberian tradition, a bulging square sail is said to be round.
Caravela_de_armada_of_Joao_Serrao.jpg


It was employed in coast-guard fleets near the Strait of Gibraltar and as an armed escort for merchant ships between Portugal and Brazil and in the Cape Route. Some consider this a forerunner of the fighting galleon and remained in use until the 17th century.

2nd Idea, replace the name Afonsine Ordinances for Feitorias and leave the production bonus.
Feitorias served simultaneously as market, warehouse, and support to the navigation and customs. Portugal's first Feitoria overseas was in Mauritania (West Africa) and, in time, there would be multiple ones, extending all the way to Macau and, of course, on the New World. They were governed by a feitor ("factor") responsible for managing the trade, buying and trading products on behalf of the king. Between the 15th and 16th centuries, a chain of about 50 Portuguese forts either housed or protected feitorias along the coasts of West and East Africa, the Indian Ocean, China, Japan, and South America. The main Portuguese factories were in Goa, Malacca, Ormuz, Ternate, and Macau. They were mainly driven by the trade of gold and slaves on the coast of Guinea, spices in the Indian Ocean, and sugar cane in the New World. They were also used for local triangular trade between several territories, like Goa-Macau-Nagasaki, trading products such as sugar, pepper, coconut, timber, horses, grain, feathers from exotic Indonesian birds, precious stones, silks and porcelain from the East, among many other products.

Fort_of_Arguin_1721.jpg


With this we come to the 3rd Idea wich i will name the Military Order of Christ, and i leave a text from Judi Upton Ward, Military Orders Volume 4 on land and sea.

The return of Vasco da Gama from Calicut resulted in the formation of a strategic awareness that the eastern seas were a hostile place for the Portuguese.
The urgent requirements of the novelty of the war on the eastern maritime front implied the sudden re-emergence of two realities that, in the last years of maritime exploration in the southern Atlantic Ocean, had tended to diminish greatly in terms of their traditional importance: on the one hand, the idea was again put forward that the crusade was a factor that legitimized the war, and, on the other hand, there was also a need for the king to reinforce the military preparation of the human resources involved in the armadas sailing to the Indian Ocean.

We do, in fact, have information showing that this problem was fiercely debated in the royal council, with the final option being in favour of offensive military intervention. In this context, the monarchy chose to support an intensive programme for the recruitment of military personnel, who, for quite understandable reasons, were sought among the members of the military orders. There then came a period in which significant use was made of the knights and commanders of the military orders, with many of them being transferred to the Order of Christ.

The king – I reiterate – was the governor of this Order and, for the reasons already mentioned, since the mid-fifteenth century it had enjoyed spiritual jurisdiction over a region that stretched all the way to the East. In this way, the scenario was created that legitimized such actions (in both ideological and legal terms), favouring this recourse to the knights of the Order of Christ, despite the difficulties that naturally arose in the process of transferring from one military order to another, and which were eventually overcome.

From this, it is understandable that a recent study of the presence in the East of knights from the military orders, in the first two decades of the sixteenth century, has produced a substantial list of names: ninety-seven knights have been identified. Some of them were important figures in the context of Portuguese history in the East at that time.
portuguese-malacca-233515e2-7224-44fa-9517-3c745a8bdb8-resize-750.jpg


For example: Afonso de Albuquerque, a knight of the Order of Santiago and governor of India; António de Saldanha, a knight of the Order of Christ and admiral of the fleet in 1517; Diogo Lopes de Sequeira, a knight of the Order of Christ and governor of India; Duarte de Meneses, a knight of the Order of Santiago and governor of India; Fernão Peres de Andrade, a knight of the Order of Christ and commander-in-chief of the fleet in 1535; Francisco de Almeida, a knight of the Order of Santiago and viceroy of India; Henrique de Meneses, a knight of the Order of Christ and governor of India; João Freire, a knight of the Order of Santiago and commander-in-chief; Jorge de Brito, a knight of the Order of Christ, captain of Malacca and commander-in-chief of the fleet in 1520; Joao de Melo, a knight of the Order of Santiago, captain of the fleet of Lopo Soares 1515–18; Lds de Meneses, a knight of the Order of Christ and commander-in-chief of the fleet 1518–26; Manuel de Lacerda, a knight of the Order of Christ and commander-in-chief of the fleet in 1527; Pedro de Mascarenhas, a knight of the Order of Christ and captain of Malacca; Vasco da Gama, a knight of the Order of Santiago, and later of the Order of Christ, commander-in-chief of the armadas of 1497 and 1502, and viceroy of India in 1524.

With this said, i would give 10% Infantry Combat Ability to Portugal to buff their army.

4th idea would be the Cartaz System.
The "cartazes" licensing system was created in 1502 to control and enforce the Portuguese trade monopoly over a wide area in the Indian Ocean, taking advantage of local commerce: the cartaz was issued by the Portuguese at a low cost, granting merchant ships protection against pirates and rival states, which then abounded in these seas. However its main purpose was to ensure that merchants paid the tax in Portuguese trading posts, directing them to the feitorias in Goa, Malacca and Ormuz, guaranteeing its monopoly on the spice trade and other products.

Officially, no vessel was permitted to sail in the Indian coast without this document, risking losing their cargo, being attacked and even sunk by the Portuguese - mainly Muslim, Hindu and Malay merchant ships. Every year, during the monsoon, Portuguese fleets patrolled the coasts requiring this document.Later, as Portuguese lost influence, the issue of cartazes become in itself an important source of income for the crown.

This would give the 10% global trade power.

5th idea, Encourage the Bandeirantes and this would give +15 Global Settler increase.
The Bandeirantes, literally "flag-carriers", were explorers, adventurers, slavers, and fortune hunters in early Colonial Brazil. They led expeditions carrying the Portuguese flag, the bandeira, claiming, by planting the flag, new lands for the Crown of Portugal. They are largely responsible for Brazil's great expansion westward, far beyond the Tordesillas Line of 1494, by which the Pope divided the new continent into a western, Castilian section, and an eastern, Portuguese section.

Domingos_Jorge_Velho.jpg

6th idea can remain the same.

7th idea remains the same but would change for Lines of Torres Vedras.
The work began on the main defensive works on 3 November 1809, initially at the Fort of São Julião da Barra and almost immediately afterwards at the Fort of São Vicente (St. Vincent) overlooking the town of Torres Vedras and at the Fort of Alqueidão on top of Monte Agraço. The entire construction was carried out in great secrecy and the French never became aware of it. Only one report appeared in the London newspapers, a major source of information for Napoleon. It is said that the British government did not know about the forts and was stunned when Wellington first said in dispatches that he had retreated to them. Even the British Ambassador in Lisbon appears to have been unaware of what was happening. These defences were accompanied by a scorched earth policy to their north in which the inhabitants were told to leave their farms, destroying all food they could not take and anything else that may be useful to the French.
Although ultimately contributing to the success of the defence, this policy led to high rates of mortality among the Portuguese who had retreated south of the lines. By some estimates 40,000 died.
The Lines were not continuous, as in the case of a defensive wall, but consisted of a series of mutually supporting forts and other defences that both guarded roads that the French could take and also covered each other’s flanks. The majority of the defences were redoubts holding 200 to 300 troops and three to six cannon, normally 12-pounders, which could fire canister shot or cannonballs. Each redoubt was protected by a ditch or dry moat, with parapets, and was palisaded. By the time the French reached the First Line in October 1810, 126 works had been completed and were manned by 29,750 men with 247 heavy guns. Wellington did not use his front-line troops to man the forts: instead, manpower was mainly provided by the Portuguese. Construction continued after the withdrawal of the French and was not fully completed until 1812.
On completion there were 152 fortifications with a total of 648 cannon.

Lines_of_Torres_Vedras.jpg


And ambition the same.

Portuguese ideas
Traditions.png Traditions:+15% Trade efficiency+25% Colonial range
Morale hit when losing a ship.png Legacy of the Navigator

−33%
Morale hit when losing a ship+20% Light ship combat ability
Goods produced modifier.png Feitorias

+10% Goods produced modifier
1597256843116.png
Military Order of Christ

+10%
Infantry combat ability
Trade power.png Cartaz system

+10%
Global trade power
1597256946897.png
Encourage the Bandeirantes

+15
Global settler increase

Construction cost.png Royal Absolutism

−15%
Construction cost+0.50 Yearly absolutism
Artillery combat ability.png Linhas de Torres Vedras

+10%
Artillery combat ability+10% Fort defense
Idea bonus.png Ambition:

+20%
Global tariffs
 
Last edited:
  • 11Like
  • 5
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:

Kanem Bornu

First Lieutenant
72 Badges
Aug 29, 2010
271
673
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
Really great write up and information! Other than the names on the ideas, it looks like the only thing you changed functionally was swap out +1 merchant in favor of +10% infantry combat ability? That seems a relatively minor change to go from "subpar" to not.

Tariffs are relatively worthless. If you're going to drop anything from Portugal's idea set, their ambition should the first on the chopping block, and not the merchant.

Just my opinion based on mechanics alone though! I know ideas shouldn't strictly be about mechanics, but also should have a historical basis.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Waffle Knight

Second Lieutenant
86 Badges
Dec 1, 2015
195
335
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Portuguese ideas
Traditions.png Traditions:+15% Trade efficiency+25% Colonial

Morale hit when losing a ship.png Legacy of the Navigator

−33%
Morale hit when losing a ship+20% Light ship combat ability
1597256843116.png
Military Order of Christ

+10%
Infantry combat ability
Trade power.png Cartaz system

+10%
Global trade power
1597256946897.png
Encourage the Bandeirantes

+15
Global settler increase

Construction cost.png Royal Absolutism

−15%
Construction cost+0.50 Yearly absolutism
Artillery combat ability.png Linhas de Torres Vedras

+10%
Artillery combat ability+10% Fort defense
Idea bonus.png Ambition:

+20%
Global tariffs
I see some problems with these changes.

1. Goods produced is about your nation producing trade goods. The source you bring up about feitorias explicitly mentions that they are for trade and warehousing, not production. This renaming makes no sense.

2. The light ship CA. I see a problem with the modifier because it's too big, my issue is that it's a bad modifier. The source you mention brings up the innovation of speed and the ability to move against the wind. If anything, 10% naval move speed would fit better, and also be a very strong modifier, both economically, due to trade ships trade power modifier being affected by speed (never keep them with galleys because of this), and militarily, since you can chase and escape enemy navies easier.

The rest i don't really have an opinion on, one way or another.
 
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Thanks for the feedback, I'll be answering in full and making some changes later on tonight.
Just to point that I choose trade goods for feitoria, because Portugal would trade cloth and copper for gold, ivory and other items on west africa. Hence my choice for goods produced, because those trade goods would sit on the feitoria until a ship passed by to collect them.

I'll be back after work, already have done changes in mind.
 

schaedel

First Lieutenant
40 Badges
Aug 23, 2010
276
83
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Sorry, can we stop that biased, nationalistic kind of stuff already? Yes, I know, those ideas are supposed to be unbiased, sorry, are you kidding me? Like always, the main purpose is to implement some major militaristic bonusses to Portugal, which simply do NOT belong there.

I guess you can find evidence for every single country/entity in this game (at least for those with a tradition of written language) where they landed a major victory or even won a war against all odds, but that doesn't matter. It is the perception and the "Bigger Picture" that count and rightly so. No one (at least no one in a sane condition) would consider Portugal a "military powerhouse" and this is correctly represented in their national ideas. It would be ok to implement something minor (but very helpful) like +15% Manpower-reg, but +10 inf AND art-combat? Come on man, that's ridiculous.

This game is (and has to be) about generalisations and abstractions, we don't really play a country, we play the public PERCEPTION of that country and generally speaking, that works quite well. Portugal is considered to be a colonizer and a trading nation and guess what: They succeed in exactly that areas in the game. I nearly never see them fail, they ALWAYS maintain a nice Colonial Empire. Portugal is way more stable than Spain and France, those are nations I see crumbling quite often (without my Intervention), so those Portuguese ideas seem to work quite well.

This abstraction can go the other way,too. Look at Prussia. The PERCEPTION of Prussia is "an army with a state" and thus, Prussia's ideas are built around that exact idea. Of course, the "real" Prussians, while veryvery capable in warfare, cannot possibly have been those world-beating space-marines they are in the game, but guess what? It works! You get a mid-sized nation which punches way above its weight, but struggles with economy and diplomacy, seems about right for me! The same goes for Sweden, where it is working just as well.

By the way: A lot of Portuguese complaints are about the (supposedly unfair) lack of militaristic ideas, because "but historically we were...bla...bla...bla", but I have never ever heard a single complaint about the unhistoric head-start Portugal gets in colonising (1470 and first colonial nations in Caribbean AND maybe Brazil? That's alright I guess), so all those complaints are not about some "historical accuracies", they are about cherry-picking and that's really annoying.
 
  • 25
  • 11
  • 7Like
Reactions:

Kuantum

Captain
50 Badges
Jun 24, 2016
408
1.226
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
Nice read. But I agree that Portugal can't be considered a military power house. Far from it. For sure there are several interesting wars, like the Portuguese-Dutch trade war, The Restoration War against Castile, the show of strength in India.. but we have to consider the balance of power of the alliances.

If we must, I would go for more scientific ideas related to Navy and Exploration bonus... For instance, Pedro Nunes (1502-1578) was a mathematician who invented the Nonio, a measurement device, that allowed to plan navigation with a very short margin of error.

But, sure, I guess every player want's to have +10% morale and infantry combat ability :)
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
I will just ignore schaedel rant, not in the mood to tackle his "nationalism" spin, I actually went for an almost unchanged suggestion because it rustles people jimmies for some reasons.

But I did not add Morale.
Just infantry combat ability, which I was actually thinking on changing for +1 naval leader shock and 33% ship capture, but I'll tackle it after work, along side other changes.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

schaedel

First Lieutenant
40 Badges
Aug 23, 2010
276
83
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I will just ignore schaedel rant, not in the mood to tackle his "nationalism" spin, I actually went for an almost unchanged suggestion because it rustles people jimmies for some reasons.

But I did not add Morale.
Just infantry combat ability, which I was actually thinking on changing for +1 naval leader shock and 33% ship capture, but I'll tackle it after work, along side other changes.

Sorry, what rant are you talking about? I am just annoyed by the constant (is it a bi-weekly event?) Portuguese complaints about their "sub-par" ideas. Portuguese ideas are not sub-par, they are just not militaristic, so where is the problem with that? And to prove that, you just added 2 (not 1!) hefty modifiers in their idea-set, just because "Portugal needs to be mightier" (again, spare me the supposed historic evidence, that is not important in the broader context of the game) If this is not "National bias" (in addition to using an obvious Portuguese avatar), then I don't know what is.

But to be more precise: I am not totally opposed to new/adjusted ideas for Portugal (or any other nation, of course), but they "have to stay the course" and really ALL suggestions for Portugal in the last few years have included some completely lunatic and way too strong military bonusses, with barely a focus on Portugal's "true calling-card", colonisation and trade. So what would you think, are such suggestions meant to "better represent" Portugal or would you think it is just about "make them (militarily) stronger"? For me, that answer is clear and I don't agree with it at all
 
  • 9Like
  • 7
  • 1
Reactions:

Waffle Knight

Second Lieutenant
86 Badges
Dec 1, 2015
195
335
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Thanks for the feedback, I'll be answering in full and making some changes later on tonight.
Just to point that I choose trade goods for feitoria, because Portugal would trade cloth and copper for gold, ivory and other items on west africa. Hence my choice for goods produced, because those trade goods would sit on the feitoria until a ship passed by to collect them.

I'll be back after work, already have done changes in mind.
That still has nothing to do with mass production of goods inside your nation. By that logic every single idea related to trade could be converted to goods produced without any consideration.
If anything, the most 'accurate' modifier would be something like 33% provincial trade power in overseas land/trade companies.
 

schaedel

First Lieutenant
40 Badges
Aug 23, 2010
276
83
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
That still has nothing to do with mass production of goods inside your nation. By that logic every single idea related to trade could be converted to goods produced without any consideration.
If anything, the most 'accurate' modifier would be something like 33% provincial trade power in overseas land/trade companies.

You are mistaken, pal, all the "historic Arguments" in the OP are just smoke-screens. It was never about "portraying Portugal more realistically/historically", it's all just about make Portugal (even) stronger, but that will probably be considered another "rant" :)
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Heaven Canceler

Sergeant
46 Badges
Dec 15, 2017
73
102
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
But to be more precise: I am not totally opposed to new/adjusted ideas for Portugal (or any other nation, of course), but they "have to stay the course" and really ALL suggestions for Portugal in the last few years have included some completely lunatic and way too strong military bonusses, with barely a focus on Portugal's "true calling-card", colonisation and trade. So what would you think, are such suggestions meant to "better represent" Portugal or would you think it is just about "make them (militarily) stronger"? For me, that answer is clear and I don't agree with it at all

From what I understand.. Portugal didn't actually colonize that much? At least not compared to the likes of England and Spain, both beat them in amount easily, even though the English started way later. To quote a comment from another discussion thread..

Couldn't disagree more about colonization. They absolutely did not colonize fast, in fact they were quite slow.
For perspective, Portugal started colonizing in 1500, Brittain only started colonizing by ~1600 yet by 1750 they had already colonized more than Portugal who had been in the colonial game for twice as long.

If anyone deserves Colonial ideas, its Spain, they Colonized much faster and far more than Portugal or anyone else really. And yet Portugal usually out-performs Spain Colonially in Eu4.

Eu4 Portugal always outperforms real life Portugal when it comes to colonization.

As for military, where Portugal vastly underperforms in game compared to real life, they performed far better in the early game, therefore shock defense, shock damage, infantry power and morale in traditions and first ideas make much more sense than fire damage, fire defense, artillery combat or discipline in the late ideas or ambitions.

From a realism point of view.. Portugal is just kinda odd because it is way safer than it was in RL. Portugal got into wars and conflicts with Spain many times throughout the history of EU4. Even got forced into submission and then fought a war for independence according to the list of Spanish-Portugal wars... (Though they did help from England and France.)

That said, many things are a bit different.. like how Scottland is easily conquered by England in EU4 when in reality they were a pain and only got united due to a PU..

And no, I am not from Portugal if you are curious. I am from Austria, with some Spanish blood.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions:

schaedel

First Lieutenant
40 Badges
Aug 23, 2010
276
83
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
@Heaven Canceler: no problems with your response and, considering just the "hard facts", you are right, "real" Portugal was not that big of a colonizer, but again, that doesn't matter for EUIV's purpose and context. Just ask anybody who is interested in world-history and is NOT from Portugal (or has something like a History Diploma), so just anybody with the common half knowledge about world-history, and THAT is what defines the countries in EUIV. Stereotypes (or perceptions, which sounds nicer). Most people when asked about ancient Portugal will answer: "Exploration, Colonisation, Trade" and that is just about it and that's why those ideas are what they are.

It's the same with Prussia, nearly everyone will say "Military" and not thinking that if not for the "Miracle of Hohenzollern" they would have ceased to exist as early as 1760. France was utterly defeated at the end of the Napoleonic wars, that does not change our (or rather, the public) PERCEPTION of Napoleon as nearly invincible and that is one of the reasons why French ideas are what they are, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

It just is completely impossible to properly represent every single country in this game based on its (the country's) own records. Then of course every country would have those +5% discipline (just an example) which means, if everybody has it, nobody has. There is nothing wrong in going with stereotypes, the Dutch are Traders, the Swiss are fierce Warriors, the Austrians/Habsburgs cunning diplomats. It works for the game, creates different feelings and it is a game after all, so I am rather glad the devs are reluctant to give in to all those proposed changes too quickly (Of course it's not just Portugal, you could do that for every country, I am from the Palatinate and would also propose some "unbiased changes" to that idea-set :) )
 
  • 7
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
I'll continue ignoring schaedel and his rant, I'm looking more into early game changes.

I'm thinking on taking off the artillery bonus, and bring the defensiveness earlier, and add ship capture chance to simulate the Mare Clausum ambition of the Portuguese Crown.

The Light Ship CA can be replaced for 5% durability.

This would make Portugal more of a defensive (Tall) nation with a navy to back up the forts and capture enemy shipping as they historically did while they maintained their monopoly on the India ocean for 100 years.

Adding naval leader shock and land leader shock as an estate for the portuguese nobility called order of Christ.

Portugal having a merchant is redundant, the majority of Portugal missions already give trade bonus, and Portugal gameplay with trade companies is aimed at controlling the trade modes, which will give plenty of merchants already.

As soon as I get home I'll add sources to the new suggestions I have in mind.
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
That still has nothing to do with mass production of goods inside your nation. By that logic every single idea related to trade could be converted to goods produced without any consideration.
If anything, the most 'accurate' modifier would be something like 33% provincial trade power in overseas land/trade companies.
You are right, staying with the original idea is more accurate.
In fact Portugal should not have production bonus due to tue fact that with the recruitment for the Armadas agriculture suffered because almost no one was left to work the fields.

I'm tempted to add 10% defensiveness to the idea tho, due to the fact that most of the feitorias were later on fortified, and Portugal did build a strong of fort across Africa and Asia, what do you think?
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Heaven Canceler

Sergeant
46 Badges
Dec 15, 2017
73
102
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
@Heaven Canceler: no problems with your response and, considering just the "hard facts", you are right, "real" Portugal was not that big of a colonizer, but again, that doesn't matter for EUIV's purpose and context. Just ask anybody who is interested in world-history and is NOT from Portugal (or has something like a History Diploma), so just anybody with the common half knowledge about world-history, and THAT is what defines the countries in EUIV. Stereotypes (or perceptions, which sounds nicer). Most people when asked about ancient Portugal will answer: "Exploration, Colonisation, Trade" and that is just about it and that's why those ideas are what they are.

I guess in that question it boils down to people having different wants. Group 1# would want to have more things historically accurate, based mostly on hard facts and historical events. While Group #2 is more interested in a more general "flavor" type nations where they are more "archetypes" without necessarily following what happened historically.

I personally lean into the first direction, though I can understand why one would go the other way.. I am just not really into the meme "define a nation with stereotype" sorta thing I guess. And I do like the idea of learning more about history through the game.. I mean it has a lot of niche stuff already like how Navarra has a thing where they can take control of the French throne because one of their kings took over as the French monarch because they were the closest relative.

It just is completely impossible to properly represent every single country in this game based on its (the country's) own records. Then of course every country would have those +5% discipline (just an example) which means, if everybody has it, nobody has.

While it is certainly impossible to make every country historically accurate, I personally think "more historical" is certainly possible. As said, there is much flavor that can be added through ideas.. hell some things are actually present in the game. For example, there is an even that hugely buffs Ethiopia for a short time in simulation of one war in which they supported them with weapons and soldiers in a war against Adal. (According to the discussions, the people from Adal got supported by the Ottomans for a time..)

And I remember reading in one discussion that in EU3, there was a event where the Scottish would get a big stack of event troops if the English got too much warscore in a war against them... (Though obviously they removed that, not sure why..)
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

schaedel

First Lieutenant
40 Badges
Aug 23, 2010
276
83
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Yeah, when playing Scotland in EU3 you basically wanted to "lose" against England (or at least pretend to do so), as soon as England reached a certain treshold you got lots (around 20? IIRC) highlander-regiments as Scotland, just popping out of nowhere, always helped tip that war :)

I get what you want and aim for, and I certainly can sympathize with that, but to implement that properly, you would have to rebuild the whole game/system from scratch, to achieve that "sandbox-feeling". Cause it would make absolutely no sense to give a whole set of ideas to a nation and "predetermine" it like that (that's what I like, but that's clearly "path 2").

Maybe that would be a "fairer" and "more just" solution, as your idea-set will lead/define you through nearly 400 years, while the actual historic precedence (or maybe even the public perception) could easily only apply for some decads or even less than that.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Sete

Lt. General
48 Badges
Jan 24, 2018
1.298
3.053
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Ok round 2.

Portuguese ideas
Traditions.png Traditions:+15% Trade efficiency+25% Colonial range
Morale hit when losing a ship.png Legacy of the Navigator

−33%
Morale hit when losing a ship +5% ship durability

Goods produced modifier.png Feitorias

+10% Global trade power


1597256843116.png

Mare Clausum
+10% Fort defense +10 Artillery Combat Ability


1597338706056.png
Spice Trade Monopoly

+10% Trade Steering


Mercenary maintenance.png Defense of the Empire

−15% Mercenary maintenance

1597256946897.png

Encourage the Bandeirantes

+15 Global settler increase



Construction cost.png Royal Absolutism

−15%
Construction cost+0.50 Yearly absolutism


Idea bonus.png Ambition:

+20%
Global tariffs



To start with ship durability:
Portuguese India ships distinguished themselves from the ships of other navies (especially those of rival powers in the Indian Ocean) on two principal accounts: their seaworthiness (durability at sea) and their artillery.

With a few exceptions (e.g. Flor de la Mar, Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai), Portuguese India naus were not typically built to last longer than four or five years of useful service. That a nau managed to survive a single India run was already an achievement, given that few ships of any nation at the time were able to stay at sea for even a quarter as long without breaking apart at the seams.

The success of the India nau depended on 15th-century innovations in Portuguese shipbuilding that greatly improved the seaworthiness and longevity of the ship. Notable among these were the use of iron nails (rather than wooden pegs) to hold planks, the mixing of lead in the seams, and a caulking technique that improved upon traditional oakum with 'galagala' paste (a mixture of oakum, lime and olive oil, producing a kind of putty that could be pressed between the planks). Hulls were amply coated in pitch and pine tar (imported in bulk amounts from northern Germany), giving the India naus their famous (and, to some observers, sinister) dark tone.

Also later on: São Martinho or San Martín (meaning Saint Martin), built as a Portuguese Navy galleon, became the flagship of Duke of Medina Sedonia, commander-in-chief of the Spanish Armada. The São Martinho and his squad played a crucial role in defending the armada throughout the English Channel. At the time of forming the Spanish Armada, São Martinho was found to be the best of the fleet and was chosen as the flagship of the Armada commander-in-chief, Duke of Medina Sidonia. An example was the fighting of July 31 to August 2, 1588, from the English coast to Calais, such as the rescue ordered by Medina Sidonia of the galleon São João, commanded by Juan Martinez de Recalde, that after repairs and trying to join the formation, was intercepted and faced alone 12 English galleons and race galleons. In the process, the São Martinho fought, virtually isolated, for one hour, 15 English galleons.

Mare Clausum:
Afonso advanced the three-fold Portuguese grand scheme of combating Islam, spreading Christianity, and securing the trade of spices by establishing a Portuguese Asian empire.Among his achievements, Afonso managed to conquer Goa and was the first European of the Renaissance to raid the Persian Gulf, and he led the first voyage by a European fleet into the Red Sea. His military and administrative works are generally regarded as among the most vital to building and securing the Portuguese Empire in the Orient, the Middle East, and the spice routes of eastern Oceania.

Afonso is generally considered a military genius,and "probably the greatest naval commander of the age" given his successful strategy—he attempted to close all the Indian Ocean naval passages to the Atlantic, Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and to the Pacific, transforming it into a Portuguese mare clausum established over the opposition of the Ottoman Empire and its Muslim and Hindu allies.In the expansion of the Portuguese Empire, Afonso initiated a rivalry that would become known as the Ottoman–Portuguese war, which would endure for many years. Many of the Ottoman–Portuguese conflicts in which he was directly involved took place in the Indian Ocean, in the Persian Gulf regions for control of the trade routes, and on the coasts of India. It was his military brilliance in these initial campaigns against the much larger Ottoman Empire and its allies that enabled Portugal to become the first global empire in history. He had a record of engaging and defeating much larger armies and fleets. For example, his capture of Ormuz in 1507 against the Persians was accomplished with a fleet of seven ships.Other famous battles and offensives which he led include the conquest of Goa in 1510 and the capture of Malacca in 1511. He became admiral of the Indian Ocean, and was appointed head of the "fleet of the Arabian and Persian sea" in 1506.

Spice trade Monopoly:
In 1511, Afonso de Albuquerque conquered Malacca for Portugal, then the center of Asian trade. East of Malacca, Albuquerque sent several diplomatic and exploratory missions, including to the Moluccas. Getting to know the secret location of the Spice Islands, mainly the Banda Islands, then the world source of nutmeg and cloves, he sent an expedition led by António de Abreu to Banda, where they were the first Europeans to arrive in early 1512. Abreu's expedition reached Buru, Ambon and Seram Islands, and then Banda.


Portugal claimed the Indian Ocean as its mare clausum during the Age of Discovery.
From 1507–1515 Albuquerque tried to completely block Arab and other traditional routes that stretched from the shores of Western Pacific to the Mediterranean sea, through the conquest of strategic bases in the Persian Gulf and at the entry of the Red Sea.

By the early 16th century the Portuguese had complete control of the African sea route, which extended through a long network of routes that linked three oceans, from the Moluccas (the Spice Islands) in the Pacific Ocean limits, through Malacca, Kerala and Sri Lanka, to Lisbon in Portugal (Europe).

Defense of the Empire:
In the context of Portuguese restoration war and dutch portuguese war and later on Fantastic War

*1660 - On the restoration of Charles II in Britain, the (Portuguese) Queen-Regent re-negotiates the treaty of 1654. Portugal is allowed to recruit soldiers and horses in England for the fight against Spain; and to seek out 4,000 fighting men in Scotland and Ireland and charter 24 English ships to carry them. The expeditionary force is to be issued with English weapons on arrival in Portugal and guaranteed religious freedom of worship.
*1661 - Castelo Melhor initiates the final, successful phase of the Portuguese Acclamation War of with the aid of the Franco-German Marshal Schomberg, who brilliantly commands an international mercenary army against the Spanish forces. Castelo Melhor plans to prosecute the war to take Galicia at the end of it to the Portuguese crown as war indemnities, and the fact contributes to the deposition of King Afonso VI, and his exile into France.
*1665 - 17 June, Portugal is again victorious at the Battle of Montes Claros, in which Marialva and Schomberg defeated the Spanish army under the Marquis of Caracena; Spain ceases to make war, but peace will not be signed for another three years.


With this i would like to add another couple suggestions:
Drop the Historical friend with Castille. I know it wont happen due to fact that Portugal is a tutorial nation, but its like having France and England as historical friends.

Add the Order of Christ Nobility estate for Portugal due to the facts already transcribed on the first post giving +1 land leader shock and +1 naval shock.
"Furthermore, when it came to warfare, the Portuguese, especially the fidalgos, were slow to adapt to new methods of warfare. The Portuguese expansion into the Indian Ocean occurred at the time when medieval warfare, centered around the individual and hand-to-hand combat, was slowly passing and being replaced by a more modern Renaissance style of warfare, focused on massed formations (the so-called Swiss fighting tactics) and long-range fire (whether by crossbow or musket). The death of the medieval military culture, however, was slow and more than once Portuguese troops were defeated or almost met disaster because they chose to engage in close combat rather than rely on their superior fire power. Despite that clash of cultures, Portugal nevertheless prevailed.

The Portuguese triumphed in the 16th century in Asia because of their superior naval and military technology combined with seemingly boundless aggression and a propensity for cruelty and violence. Without a doubt, the Indian Ocean was not exactly a peaceful region prior to the arrival of the Portuguese. “A peaceful state never existed in South Asia,” the historian Upinder Singh notes in Political Violence in India describing three millennia of almost continuous warfare on the Indian subcontinent. If nothing else, the Portuguese just proved to be better navigators and killers throughout the 16th century than their Asian counterparts and utterly ruthless. Or as the Florentine merchant Piero Strozzi, who witnessed the Portuguese conquest of Goa, noted: “I think they [the Indians] are superior to us in infinite ways, except when it comes to fighting.”


What changed then?
Makes Portuguese ships more durable, drops Production and adds trade steering, as it was the point of the whole affair of reaching india, and adds cheaper mercenaries to simulate the allied mercenary troops and local auxilia hired across the empire, making them hard to disloge early game.

The way i see this, Portugal needs to explore, control centers of trade, and then defend them as they historically did, using mercenaries and allied help to fight wars in the continent after the 17th century.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:

newtlord

Colonel
39 Badges
Dec 28, 2011
909
2.032
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
Leaving aside questions of "perception versus reality", it seems to me that, while Portugal can boast of glorious victories against all odds, they don't amount to much more than can be boasted of by any nation with a thousand-odd years of history, so it would be inappropriate for Portugal's national ideas to focus unduly on military bonuses. On the other hand, they built a global empire the like of which no nation had created before and relatively few did afterwards, so their national ideas should help them build a global empire- and, in EUIV, colonization is the primary way for them to do this.

It might be fun, however, to give them unique ideas that help them with other methods of global expansion- perhaps copying the old idea from Expansion that used to allow the fabricating of non-bordering claims in trade company areas, or even giving them a discount on trade company charters.
 
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions: