Portraits

[Lifthrasil]

You are correct that that is what I think the 1990's ruling. I think video games have changed and perceptions can change on them which could mean court rulings can change. There are two issues you bring up. One Germany's law regarding educational use of historic images (German law & U.S. are different on this issue) and the other are computer (video) games educational under German law. Does German law effect Sweden & Swedish companies? Paradox used to sell physical copies of their game in Germany and those games had to meet German law. Does an international download have to meet German law?

I feel comfortable that my mods meets U.S. law (even if they were for sale (school text books are a commercial product that are educational)) and are uploaded to a U.S. server (I checked). So I am operating in the U.S. and am only subject to U.S. law. Now people in other countries download the mod (very many in Germany) and I don't think they are breaking German law by downloading (even if they paid to do it). Would Germany (the government) threaten a foreign online distributor that if a product didn't meet German standards that they would block Germans (individuals) from access? I think they might if it was overt Neo-Nazi stuff. Not sure on other issues. I know China blocks some stuff I upload, but not in Hong Kong. I cannot meet every countries laws (N. Korea & Iran) and I don't care to.

Disclaimer: I'm not studying Urheberrecht (copyright law) in Germany, but I have some knowledge about it.
German law affects Swedish companies as far as they do business in Germany. So HoI4 could for example not have a swastica in the German version, but the copies sold in all other countries may have swasticas in it. The German lawmaker only cares about what happens in Germany. (As you already said correctly)

Regarding international downloads, it's a bit more complicated. As far as I know, infringement here is not based on the local law of the file hoster (lets say a server in the USA), but on the location of the downloader. So, if your mod is downloaded INTO GERMANY, this mod (or this specific copy of it) now is subject to German law. This certainly affects the user of the mod, but I'm not sure about how it affects you...
In general, German jurisdiction is not really concerned about stuff happening in other countries (unlike the US) as long as no German is harmed. So if what you do is legal in the US (swasticas in mods), Germany won't prosecute you as long as Germany is not concerned. On the other hand, unlawful distribution of copies is also illegal in Germany and some illegal activities may be prosecuted even if they happen outside Germany. Nevertheless, I never heard about German prosecuters trying to prosecute a non-German for something he did in a different country, especially if it's something "harmless" like putting swasticas in a mod, as long as no German was harmed.

To put it in a nutshell: As long as you don't infringe GERMAN copyright holders' rights, you should not fear anything. And even if you do (in a mod to a game that nearly nobody knows, lets be honest), I highly doubt that you would have to fear something. At least as long as it's about pictures taken by people who are long dead. If you infringe a big companies CopyR on music or something like that, they gonna get you^^

Hope that helped

 

[Gamer_1745]

@Lifthrasil

Yes, helpful. I am not that worried about swastikas, that is a Paradox thing and they have their reasons (some good ones).

Since you have some knowledge on the subject I would like to hear your thoughts on this. When I talk about legal conflicts and photos & images and national laws I am talking as well about things like to below:
'A large archive of Hoffman's photographs was seized by the United States Army during the Allied occupation of Germany. These are now held by the National Archives and Records Administration and comprise an important source of images for scholars of the Third Reich. These photographs are in the public domain in the US owing to their status as seized Nazi property, otherwise their copyrights would not yet have expired.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Hoffmann_(photographer)

So my understanding the Hoffman Collection is in the public domain in the U.S. and I think the Bavarian government owns the German copy right. So even out side of the U.S. doctrine of 'Fair Use', many (most?) of the Nazi photos (much more than just the Hoffman collection is held under the same terms) are in the public domain in the U.S., but not necessarily in Germany. In the U.S. there is a difference between possession and distribution. Since I am distributing in the U.S. and some one virtually comes to the U.S. to get it (download) and then possess in Germany (not redistributing it). Some of the photos are for sale (on photo licensing website/service) that are part of the 'Hoffman Collection', what likely would the German government reaction be to the license holder (in Germany) not getting paid? or just a cease and desist letter on use of the images?

 

[Lifthrasil]

@Lifthrasil

Yes, helpful. I am not that worried about swastikas, that is a Paradox thing and they have their reasons (some good ones).

Since you have some knowledge on the subject I would like to hear your thoughts on this. When I talk about legal conflicts and photos & images and national laws I am talking as well about things like to below:
'A large archive of Hoffman's photographs was seized by the United States Army during the Allied occupation of Germany. These are now held by the National Archives and Records Administration and comprise an important source of images for scholars of the Third Reich. These photographs are in the public domain in the US owing to their status as seized Nazi property, otherwise their copyrights would not yet have expired.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Hoffmann_(photographer)

So my understanding the Hoffman Collection is in the public domain in the U.S. and I think the Bavarian government owns the German copy right. So even out side of the U.S. doctrine of 'Fair Use', many (most?) of the Nazi photos (much more than just the Hoffman collection is held under the same terms) are in the public domain in the U.S., but not necessarily in Germany. In the U.S. there is a difference between possession and distribution. Since I am distributing in the U.S. and some one virtually comes to the U.S. to get it (download) and then possess in Germany (not redistributing it). Some of the photos are for sale (on photo licensing website/service) that are part of the 'Hoffman Collection', what likely would the German government reaction be to the license holder (in Germany) not getting paid? or just a cease and desist letter on use of the images?

To give you a definite answer I would have to consult some lawbooks, which I won't have the time for in the next weeks, unfortunately. So I will just answer out of what I know how the German system works and from my gut-feeling.

Firstly: Copyright in Germany is generally earned by mere creation of the work. Unlike in the USA, where you have to register your copyright. We will therefore call German copyright "Urheberrecht" to distinct those two. This might be important because I believe if you don't register copyright for your pictures in the USA, they are public domain, right?
Whereas in Germany it's still your IP.

Assumed the State of Bavaria holds the Urheberrecht of the pictures, and you make money off from selling those pictures to people in Germany, could Germany send you or your customer a cease-and-desist order? Let's compare it to movies downloaded illegaly (as in "not from the rightfull IP-owner"): in Germany, the seeder (person providing data) is punishable for distribution. The downloader is punishable for illegal copying. (Until now this is a grey area b/c of an argument if streaming =!= downloading, but that's not the issue here.). In theory, it should not matter where the seeder is located, since he is still infringing Bavarias copyright. In reality, I don't know if this is true in your case, since the Hoffman Collection is in public domain in the USA. Maybe there is some bilateral contract regarding this? I don't know, sorry.

Assumed there is no such contract between USA and Germany, I *guess* Bavaria could send you a cease and desist letter. That's the standard procedure for first time violations in Germany. Sueing directly almost never works out. Since this matter is handled by clerks (Beamte), I doubt that there is much risk involved, since Bavaria has no financial interest in those pictures (unlike a company has on their IP). And also the political value of those pictures might be low (unlike the Bavarian Urheberrecht on "Mein Kampf", you shouldn't try to print that in Germany before protection runs out in 2015).

TLDR: I'd say you should be pretty safe in the US (practically, not legally!). Don't know about your German downloaders, though...

 

[FOARP]

To give you a definite answer I would have to consult some lawbooks, which I won't have the time for in the next weeks, unfortunately. So I will just answer out of what I know how the German system works and from my gut-feeling.

Firstly: Copyright in Germany is generally earned by mere creation of the work. Unlike in the USA, where you have to register your copyright. We will therefore call German copyright "Urheberrecht" to distinct those two. This might be important because I believe if you don't register copyright for your pictures in the USA, they are public domain, right?
Whereas in Germany it's still your IP.

Assumed the State of Bavaria holds the Urheberrecht of the pictures, and you make money off from selling those pictures to people in Germany, could Germany send you or your customer a cease-and-desist order? Let's compare it to movies downloaded illegaly (as in "not from the rightfull IP-owner"): in Germany, the seeder (person providing data) is punishable for distribution. The downloader is punishable for illegal copying. (Until now this is a grey area b/c of an argument if streaming =!= downloading, but that's not the issue here.). In theory, it should not matter where the seeder is located, since he is still infringing Bavarias copyright. In reality, I don't know if this is true in your case, since the Hoffman Collection is in public domain in the USA. Maybe there is some bilateral contract regarding this? I don't know, sorry.

Assumed there is no such contract between USA and Germany, I *guess* Bavaria could send you a cease and desist letter. That's the standard procedure for first time violations in Germany. Sueing directly almost never works out. Since this matter is handled by clerks (Beamte), I doubt that there is much risk involved, since Bavaria has no financial interest in those pictures (unlike a company has on their IP). And also the political value of those pictures might be low (unlike the Bavarian Urheberrecht on "Mein Kampf", you shouldn't try to print that in Germany before protection runs out in 2015).

TLDR: I'd say you should be pretty safe in the US. Don't know about your German downloaders, though...

I'll chip in here, since I work in this field: copyright vests automatically on creation, even in the US (it is possible to register your copyright in the US, just not necessary). Not registering your copyright in the US merely complicates enforcement and proof of ownership, nothing else. Germany will not send you a C&D letter except in cases where the state is the rights-holder: enforcement (in civil cases) is done by the rights holder. Copyright is supposed to receive national treatment according to the Berne Convention (which both Germany and the US are signatories of), meaning that an American author will be treated the same as if his works were created in Germany for the purposes of German law, and vice-versa. Of course, various legislation and treaties has complicated this in the case of Nazi rights-holders. By-and-large the decisions of German courts should be enforceable in the US, though in reality it is rarely this simple.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Thank you both for the replies! It helps my understanding of it.

 

[Jazumir]

@sme...: I am really impressed with your work presented in this thread (i seriously think, if PI gets under time-pressure - say the guy doing them gets sick 2 weeks before release or whatnot - they should know now, who to hire to finish the work in time). I have some questions:

Are you a pro, doing such things for a living? Do you plan to be one?
How long does it take you to make one portrait, approx.?

 

[Anichent]

I think I would pay Paradox if they released a "portrait maker" tool that let us make our own portraits for the game in this same style. A nice way to get an extra $5 from me
I have spent hours and hours trying and I think I lack the tools, knowledge, and perhaps just ability to mimic this.

 

[Axe99]

I think I would pay Paradox if they released a "portrait maker" tool that let us make our own portraits for the game in this same style. A nice way to get an extra $5 from me
I have spent hours and hours trying and I think I lack the tools, knowledge, and perhaps just ability to mimic this.

I agree with the first part of this post, but not the second - I'm sure once you'd worked it out, you'd be fine, with these things it's usually a case of working out how with the tools you've got. Not to take away from Smederevo's work - he's clearly the furthest ahead of anyone on this by some margin .

 

[edwardianed]

But you know what? I kind of wish the new portraits were being created in the same style as the old black and white photos. New art (made to order), but with the same color scheme and angles as the old photos. That would be awesome.

I'm doing just that: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701541013

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I'm doing just that: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701541013

Absolutely f'ing incredible. Gorgeous. Well done, sir!

Do you have a list of portraits you've done so far? It would be nice to keep track. Hopefully you don't run out of Steam.

 

[edwardianed]

Absolutely f'ing incredible. Gorgeous. Well done, sir!

Do you have a list of portraits you've done so far? It would be nice to keep track. Hopefully you don't run out of Steam.

I only started yesterday, (it's my new "little-bit-every-day" project) so it's just the guys you can choose on the main menu for now. But it doesn't take that long to do each one (I deliberately chose a style that's high visual impact, low artistic effort), and the best bit is, by not have to colourise I can do anyone there's a photo of, regardless of size, age or quality.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I only started yesterday, (it's my new "little-bit-every-day" project) so it's just the guys you can choose on the main menu for now. But it doesn't take that long to do each one (I deliberately chose a style that's high visual impact, low artistic effort), and the best bit is, by not have to colourise I can do anyone there's a photo of, regardless of size, age or quality.

Very wise, and I love the style. I will definitely use this mod once you have a greater variety of portraits added.

My only complaint so far is that I think your Neville Chamberlain looks a bit young for the period.

This is a nice photo, which I think would translate well for your mod:

Here's a couple of good ones of Baldwin, although sadly I can't find large photos of him:

They're nice images, though. Fairly clean.

I can't wait to see your Edward VIII.

 

[edwardianed]

My only complaint so far is that I think your Neville Chamberlain looks a bit young for the period.

Yeah, I'm not too happy with Neville, but then I decided to not to bother too much with him as I'll probably just replace him with Baldwin. Slightly outside of a graphics mod, but someone has to stand up for parliamentary historical accuracy!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Yeah, I'm not too happy with Neville, but then I decided to not to bother too much with him as I'll probably just replace him with Baldwin. Slightly outside of a graphics mod, but someone has to stand up for parliamentary historical accuracy!

Hey, I was there first. (It's actually the very first bug report for HoI IV)

I've never had a straight reply on the subject, and of course Baldwin isn't the only glaring mistake of this kind (the Australian PM is about six years off...) but I don't think they really care. It's a shame. That said, I'm going to stay optimistic and hope Baldwin is patched in. He should be.

 

[Secret Master]

I'm doing just that: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701541013

Hey, that's not bad. I didn't think anyone would take a serious gander at it.

Very wise, and I love the style. I will definitely use this mod once you have a greater variety of portraits added.

My only complaint so far is that I think your Neville Chamberlain looks a bit young for the period.

This is a nice photo, which I think would translate well for your mod:

That was the actual picture used for Chamberlain in HOI3, I think. (resized, of course)

 

[Vaximillian]

That was the actual picture used for Chamberlain in HOI3, I think. (resized, of course)

This picture has actually been in game since HoI1!

However, for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't actually used as his minister pic, this one was used instead (in 1.6, at least).

Fun fact: in 1.3, a picture of Austen Chamberlain was erroneusly used as a minister pic for Neville!

Cue vanilla HoI2: Neville finally used the picture from above as his minister pic. And that, as they say, is that.

 

[Secret Master]

This picture has actually been in game since HoI1!

However, for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't actually used as his minister pic, this one was used instead (in 1.6, at least).

Fun fact: in 1.3, a picture of Austin Chamberlain was erroneusly used as a minister pic for Neville!

Cue vanilla HoI2: Neville finally used the picture from above as his minister pic. And that, as they say, is that.

Austin Chamberlain?

(First thing I thought of, for some strange reason.)

 

[Vaximillian]

Austin Chamberlain?

(First thing I thought of, for some strange reason.)

Austen Chamberlain, of course. That's what I get for not being a native English speaker.

 

[Secret Master]

Austen Chamberlain, of course. That's what I get for not being a native English speaker.

I know. I couldn't help myself, and had to make a silly joke.

 

[AdmiralAllen]

Trying making some of my own. How does this look?

This is the picture the portrait is made from