Portraits

[FOARP]

A few questions about them:

1) Will there be portraits for every political leader who was present in HOI3? Most of them? Either seems like a massive amount of work. And what about military leaders?

2) I guess there isn't some kind of app that can "portraitify" a photo, is there?

3) Is Paradox planning to sell packs of portraits as DLC? This seems a fairly obvious move given just how big a task painting a portrait for every historical political and military leader that will be in-game is, however the forum response is unlikely to be very positive.

I see the potential for clashes when people try to create mods - most of us don't have the artistic ability to paint convincing portraits, let alone in the same style as Paradox artists, I know I certainly don't have the skill to do this. This will mean either having photos in that will look out of place next to the painted portraits, or stripping all the portraits out and replacing them with photos.

 

[xtfoster]

1) Probably most of them. IIRC you don't have all the positions to fill from HOI2/3 just HOS/HOG but you can 'buy' advisers using your political points, so most of them will still be used...
2) It has been a while, but most photo manipulation programs (PhotoShop, etc.) have 'filters' to turn a photo into a 'drawing'. Not sure what the quality is like, but I am sure the PDX artists do more than Load Photo > Apply Filter > Move on.
3) From what they have said most of the 'portraits' in the game are manipulations of existing 'historical' photos (they actually started doing this with Semper Fi or Motherland) so I expect that as long as there is demand (and available copyright free source images) they will release lots of DLC of this type.

 

[Axe99]

2) I guess there isn't some kind of app that can "portraitify" a photo, is there?

There are filters in Photoshop that can turn photos into more painting-like compositions. I'd be surprised if said filters couldn't be tailored to suit HoI4's needs (up the saturation and contrast mainly). There'd likely need to be some manual intervention to get the look PDS are going for (particularly choosing which of the edges are thicker black lines and which aren't), but someone with their eye in shouldn't find this too difficult (still work, but not crazy amounts of time spent doing it work). I'd expect most mods to take this approach, as it's far more practical than getting enough modders to learn how to paint .

 

[Nicolas I]

I like very much the kind of drawings portraits we have seen so far.

That way they are also not stopped by the lack of available photographs for some historical people or copyrights problems.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

I do not like the painted portraits of HOI IV leaders. Colored historical pictures would have been better. Also most pics are already public domain, so copyrights are no biggie.

But its not as important to me as the gameplay itself, which is my main concern tbh.

 

[Damiani]

I like the portraits. I don't think that the photographs would blend as well with HOI IV's more artistic and detailed map as it does with the more solemn HOI3 map.

 

[Daelyn75]

I do not like the painted portraits of HOI IV leaders. Colored historical pictures would have been better. Also most pics are already public domain, so copyrights are no biggie.

But its not as important to me as the gameplay itself, which is my main concern tbh.

The bottom two of Roosevelt, and Churchill are pretty nice. They look like paintings that could be hung on the wall, and probably were.

 

[xtfoster]

I do not like the painted portraits of HOI IV leaders. Colored historical pictures would have been better. Also most pics are already public domain, so copyrights are no biggie.

1) I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Under US law (doesn't cover everyone, but would cover any product sold in the US) all works published before January 1st, 1923 in the US are public domain and all works published on or after that date are covered by copyright (unless expressly released to the Public Domain by the copyright holder). So, unless you can PROVE the actual copyright holder has expressly released an item to the public domain then it isn't in the public domain. And this would cover all photos taken during the time-frame of the game.

2) The problem with using actual photos (even colorized ones) is that if there ISN'T an actual photo, it looks out of place to use a portrait instead. By using portraits they can fill in the blanks for images that don't actually exist...For example, where are you going to get a photo of an aircraft that never existed IRL but only as a concept in some design bureau instead (or of a political leader who never had...I remember searching database after database looking for photo's of various Arab leaders with no luck)?

 

[FOARP]

1) I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Under US law (doesn't cover everyone, but would cover any product sold in the US) all works published before January 1st, 1923 in the US are public domain and all works published on or after that date are covered by copyright (unless expressly released to the Public Domain by the copyright holder). So, unless you can PROVE the actual copyright holder has expressly released an item to the public domain then it isn't in the public domain. And this would cover all photos taken during the time-frame of the game.

2) The problem with using actual photos (even colorized ones) is that if there ISN'T an actual photo, it looks out of place to use a portrait instead. By using portraits they can fill in the blanks for images that don't actually exist...For example, where are you going to get a photo of an aircraft that never existed IRL but only as a concept in some design bureau instead (or of a political leader who never had...I remember searching database after database looking for photo's of various Arab leaders with no luck)?

1) here is something I can speak on since I work in IP: actually it's more complicated than this.

In the UK, copyright in photos (which are considered to be artistic works) lasts 70 years from the death of the author (i.e., the photographer) unless otherwise agreed by the author. Robert Capa's iconic photos from the Normandy Beachhead and the Spanish Civil War, for example, will be protected until the end of the calendar year 70 years after his 1954 death from a landmine explosion in the Indochina war (i.e., until the end of 2024). However, the photos taken by people who died during and before the war will, by the end of this year, all be in the public domain since this year marks the 70th anniversary of the war's end.

Necessarily many of the portraits painted are copies of photographs. I assume that Paradox covers this by using the portfolio of an agency thus ensuring they have permission to use of all of them.

Photographs taken by the servicemen of certain countries (e.g., the US) whilst on duty are in the public domain, and these may be used without copyright concerns.

There are filters in Photoshop that can turn photos into more painting-like compositions. I'd be surprised if said filters couldn't be tailored to suit HoI4's needs (up the saturation and contrast mainly). There'd likely need to be some manual intervention to get the look PDS are going for (particularly choosing which of the edges are thicker black lines and which aren't), but someone with their eye in shouldn't find this too difficult (still work, but not crazy amounts of time spent doing it work). I'd expect most mods to take this approach, as it's far more practical than getting enough modders to learn how to paint .

Hmm . . still requires that you either already have a colour photo to work on or colourise a B/W photo, and still sounds like a hell of a lot of work if you want to create a mod that's going to add 100+ leaders/generals/etc. to the game.

 

[Gamer_1745]

1) I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Under US law (doesn't cover everyone, but would cover any product sold in the US) all works published before January 1st, 1923 in the US are public domain and all works published on or after that date are covered by copyright (unless expressly released to the Public Domain by the copyright holder). So, unless you can PROVE the actual copyright holder has expressly released an item to the public domain then it isn't in the public domain. And this would cover all photos taken during the time-frame of the game.

Fair use doctrine can cover many (all?) of the historical personalities even if the photos are not in public domain. There is an educational aspect to HoI. I hang my hat on that for my mods. Being an American & distributing my mods from America (I can't control who downloads and if they break a local law). It my not cover Paradox because they are in Sweden, but Steam is an American company and the sole retailer for HOI IV so it might.

 

[FOARP]

Fair use doctrine can cover many (all?) of the historical personalities even if the photos are not in public domain. There is an educational aspect to HoI. I hang my hat on that for my mods. Being an American & distributing my mods from America (I can't control who downloads and if they break a local law). It my not cover Paradox because they are in Sweden, but Steam is an American company and the sole retailer for HOI IV so it might.

I really, really doubt that fair use is a reliable defence for copying of copyright-protected material such as photographs for use in mods. Mods are entertainment, not educational, they are not parody, there is no real transformational use. In reality, the primary reason why you don't get sued for mods is because there's no money involved and therefore no need to sue. If an IP-infringing mod ever gets so big that it starts hurting the business of the IP holder, you can bet that they will come after the mod.

Also, yes, you can infringe intellectual property if you allow people to download in a country in which the material they download is protected by IP, even if it is not protected by IP in your own country. There are numerous cases around this in the UK and I'm sure other countries have similar cases. Think about it - if someone in North Korea (or wherever) sets up a website which you can download copyright-protected material from in the US, then of course this is copyright infringement in the US and the North Korean website owner can be sued in the US courts.

 

[FieldMedic]

I personally prefer the painted portraits and unit images. It creates a consistent look and feel and you're not going to find yourself in a situation where you don't have a real photo to use. I also think the artwork is well done and skill community artists could probably replicate or replace these with their own mods.

 

[Vukodav]

HOI4 is more artistic, so painted pictures go better. But, it is going to be hard if you want to make a mod... not all people are good painters It was easy with HOI2 and HOI3, as they used historic pictures for leaders and units.

But, as we do not have divisional leaders any more, it is clear that we will have much less leaders, ergo much less portraits. Now, leaders lead whole armies and army groups, according to their skill. So I do not expect for Germany to have more than, lets say 50 land commanders. Just look at the interface - how many leaders can you fit in the bottom of the screen? 10? 20? And add two or three times that in order to give you some flexibility and that is it.

No more hundreds of leaders to choose from, and that makes portraits easier to make and mods harder to make. But I guess Photo Shop has some effects to make a picture more comic like, so mod community will figure something out.

 

[Gamer_1745]

If an IP-infringing mod ever gets so big that it starts hurting the business of the IP holder, you can bet that they will come after the mod.

There is insurance for that. There is insurance for documentaries (movies/TV/other) & books that use material that someone could claim IP infringement. I have checked into this very carefully. I think all of my material has elements of the 4 pillars of the Fair Use Doctrine and would clearly come under it for the U.S. law. Yes, someone could always still sue and if I were going to sell it I would get the insurance.

Mods are entertainment, not educational

Really why not?

Mission statement for TRE:
'*Interactive History Project

Interactive History Project is an educational project to use Computer Based Training (CBT) methods to help students learn and better retain what they have learned. Attention spans are growing shorter[1] and students who think what they need to learn is only useful to pass 'the test' will not retain what they are taught. If they think what they are learning is useful to them and will have an impact on their lives then they are much more likely to retain it. To force students to use a program in not the solution. The learning needs to be hidden in a 'Game'. In many ways CBT & games are not functionally different. A game is something they want to use and CBT is something they are told to use. To think of a game as a toy in incorrect. A toy in an object, a game in an activity.

The team is made up of educators and students of history. Their first project uses Hearts of Iron III as the base to teach the history of events leading up to the start of World War Two and during the war. The player of the 'game' will be given information in small bits that will be useful later in the 'game' he want to play. By this method it is hoped that the player (student) will learn & retain the information.'

Mods need not be educational, but I would consider HoI educational in history. A Game of Thrones mod/game would not be.

There are numerous cases around this in the UK

I would be interested in to a link to one them. I am not really concerned about a legal judgement against me in another country as I am subject to U.S. Law not the laws of every country on the planet. Now a software distributor/retailer like Steam might be as they could be block in a country from selling all products because of one product. And regards to Paradox I can see them subject to Swedish law & to whatever the extant EU law is valid in Sweden is (I don't I know Sweden's status regard EU law). Other nations laws, like China's, they are mostly only going to lose the ability to sell in that country. So if I were to lose a judgement in another country the most likely outcome would be that the mod is blocked in that country.

 

[columbusbobby23]

I really, really doubt that fair use is a reliable defence for copying of copyright-protected material such as photographs for use in mods. Mods are entertainment, not educational, they are not parody, there is no real transformational use. In reality, the primary reason why you don't get sued for mods is because there's no money involved and therefore no need to sue. If an IP-infringing mod ever gets so big that it starts hurting the business of the IP holder, you can bet that they will come after the mod.

Also, yes, you can infringe intellectual property if you allow people to download in a country in which the material they download is protected by IP, even if it is not protected by IP in your own country. There are numerous cases around this in the UK and I'm sure other countries have similar cases. Think about it - if someone in North Korea (or wherever) sets up a website which you can download copyright-protected material from in the US, then of course this is copyright infringement in the US and the North Korean website owner can be sued in the US courts.

I don't know too much about copyright law with regards to mods for games. But I remember before OOTP Baseball got their MLB license, you could actually download user created mods from inside the game menu to get all the trademarked logos, player photos and team names along with all the real player names. Maybe the MLB just didn't mind or maybe it was the fact that all the content was user created?

I personally prefer the painted portraits and unit images. It creates a consistent look and feel and you're not going to find yourself in a situation where you don't have a real photo to use. I also think the artwork is well done and skill community artists could probably replicate or replace these with their own mods.

I think it would be hard(But not impossible) to find somebody with the necessary skill and determination to replicate the artwork done by Paradox into a mod. I think that is why Francesco's work was so highly valued in his models/counters mods.

 

[that-guy-is-it]

I do not like the painted portraits of HOI IV leaders. Colored historical pictures would have been better. Also most pics are already public domain, so copyrights are no biggie.

But its not as important to me as the gameplay itself, which is my main concern tbh.

I hate to say this, but Goddamn, Hitler is cute.

 

[Oliver Twopence]

I like the clean, consistent look of the drawn portraits. Photographs vary too much in quality, I feel, and would somewhat stick out like a sore thumb when compared to the general art style of the game...

...which is brilliant, by the way. I really like the 2d art in this game. The portraits, the various icons for policies and such, the research trees (even though WW2 buffs complain about factual errors), the loading screens... It is all very crisp and well done. Hope we will see the same level of care put into Victoria 3!

And if people still prefer photographs: it is at least possible to mod them in. I am sure someone will make a fine mod.

 

[Caesar15]

Why yes, you're it, it would be a lot of work, but the artists have had PLENTY to finish all that they need to do.

 

[Daelyn75]

I like the clean, consistent look of the drawn portraits. Photographs vary too much in quality, I feel, and would somewhat stick out like a sore thumb when compared to the general art style of the game...

...which is brilliant, by the way. I really like the 2d art in this game. The portraits, the various icons for policies and such, the research trees (even though WW2 buffs complain about factual errors), the loading screens... It is all very crisp and well done. Hope we will see the same level of care put into Victoria 3!

And if people still prefer photographs: it is at least possible to mod them in. I am sure someone will make a fine mod.

Same with the consistent look here. Some of the photos in HOI II were bad quality, but then the leader was pretty obscure I think. What I really disliked was the rare historical general without a picture in DH. That drove me crazy!

Victoria is the only PDS game series that I have yet to play. I look forward to trying out Victoria III when and if it comes out.

 

[Damiani]

I hate to say this, but Goddamn, Hitler is cute.