Port of Montreal for HOI 3?

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Does anyone feel it would be nice - historically speaking - to have a Port of Montreal (qc, CAN.) considering its realtive war significance.

-Bash

A few examples:

•The S.S. Athenia (sunk by U-boat U-30 on 3 September 1939)
-passenger liner carrying 1,103 civilians from Glasgow to Montreal
13,465 tons, 526.3 feet, 66.4 foot beam
516 cabin class passengers and an additional 1,000 in 3rd class.
-First British ship to be sunk by Germany in World War II.

•SS Nicoya (sunk by U-553 on 12 May 1942)
-British freighter carrying war supplies, sailing outbound from Montreal.
5,400 gross tons, 3,300 net tons, 6,300 deadweight tons
400 feet long, 51 foot beam, 26.9-foot draft
-First ship to be torpedoed in the Gulf of St. Lawrence

PORT.................arrived / departed......TOTAL TONS (REGISTERED)
Halifax, N.S..........1259.......1484...........7,540,990
Yarmouth, N.S.......535........519............1,102,191
St. John, N.B.........684........688............2,924,822
Montreal, Quebec...1078.......907...........7,266,569
Quebec, Que..........397........308...........3,388,829

((Number and tonnage of sea-going vessels entered and cleared at the principal ports of Canada. (For year ending March 31, 1934.))
http://www.shunpiking.com/ol0309/0309-WD-UswarplanRED.htm

 

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-Made In Montreal-

In my petition to get Montreal's Port on the world map, I submit the ship builder Canadian Vickers Ltd., Montreal. Que.

It seems that quite a few Frigates, Corvettes and Submarines were made in Montreal by Vickers durring both wars.

Frigate picture/data link
http://www.readyayeready.com/cgi-bi...y.pl?index=1213

(Notice manufacturer - also see HMCS Stonetown, Hallowell, Grou, La Hulloise, Lanark, Longueuil, Montreal, etc.)

Was Canadian Vickers a tech-team separate from a UK Parent Vicker's-Armstrong (used in DD) - I can't honestly say. However, Canadian Vickers seemed to sell units back to both both the brits and americans.

-The main point here is if ships of the line, along with 10,000+ ton cargo ships (e.g., SS Rosedale Park, the Rondeau Park and the Hillcrest Park),an armed Merchant Cruiser Conversion (HMCS Prince Henry) were rolling off Montreal's wartime quays, shouldn't we be able to sail into its port durring gameplay?

 

[unmerged(19997)]

Could be pointed out that oceangoing ships should be able to travel to the Great lakes too.

 

[unmerged(66820)]

Could be pointed out that oceangoing ships should be able to travel to the Great lakes too.

Yep, that's what got me started on this ; however the modern Great Lakes St. Lawrence Seaway System seems to have been completed around 1959(?) outside of normal gameplay time frame. -I had thought it was earlier myself.
http://www.greatlakes-seaway.com/en/aboutus/seaway_history.html

But the Atlantic-Montreal route was a major european cruise link as well as bulk port prior to WWII without the additional engineering. I'd be happy to simply get a navigatable port for about 9 months of the year into gameplay honestly. Unless there is a programming or unit specific size limitation which prohibits it?

bash

 

[Phoenix Dace]

I think they just simplified this by having the port of Quebec City represent both Montreal and Quebec's ports. After all, the only way for Montreal to have a port is for Montreal to have access to the sea, and it definitely shouldn't have that.

 

[unmerged(66820)]

I think they just simplified this by having the port of Quebec City represent both Montreal and Quebec's ports. After all, the only way for Montreal to have a port is for Montreal to have access to the sea, and it definitely shouldn't have that.

Well I guess if Quebec is what we getz, its what we getz, but as for Montreal not having natural deep water access to the ocean, that is factually wrong as far as my research has shown. Just the simple fact that Canada was producing Military ships in Montreal (above posts) makes the port seem necessary dont you think - I mean how'd they get into atlantic partol duty?

“-The Europe-bound convoys from Halifax were not the starting point for all goods from Canada. Rail lines brought materials from mines, mills, and factories as far away as British Columbia. These goods and raw materials were then loaded onto ships in Montreal, and, to a lesser extent, in Québec City, and they then traveled the St. Lawrence River to the major port of Halifax, Nova Scotia, where they linked up with the larger, trans-Atlantic convoys.”
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/Vol7/no3/PDF/14-book1_e.pdf

•1939 Montreal exported more tons of shipping than all other Canadian east coast ports combined.
•Even by 1941 the ports of Montreal, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City still accounted for more tonnage than half of the shipments from the Canadian east coast.
•The sailing time from Montreal to Liverpool, the major convoy arrival point in Britain, was shorter than that for a ship sailing from New York to Liverpool.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/battlegulf/intro

“- Montreal is also an important ocean port and will be considered along with other deep sea ports.”
• From the Atlantic Ocean to Montreal, the present head of ocean navigation on the St. Lawrence, a draft of 30.0 feet is available, adequate for the great majority of ocean shipping.
• The port of Montreal, favorably located at the head of ocean navigation on the St. Lawrence and the foot of inland navigation of the Great Lakes, is a natural shipping and railroad center.
• The St. Lawrence River is ordinarily ice bound for a similar period, but somewhat later about early in December to the latter part of April.
• While there are a number of Canadian lake ports of importance, Montreal is the only one which would not be automatically closed by Blue control of the Lakes.
• While Montreal has the larger and more commodius harbor and terminal facilities, Quebec, due to its physical location, is the key point of the area.
http://www.shunpiking.com/ol0309/0309-WD-UswarplanRED.htm

 

[unmerged(66820)]

Sorry the River Frigate made in Montreal i Linked above was bad. Here it is again. :wacko:

http://www.readyayeready.com/cgi-bin/query/display.pl?index=1213

-Bash

 

[Phoenix Dace]

I'm not doubting the fact that Montreal is a vital port. But in HOI2 there isn't a way to model river traffic with ships. You can't have ships sail up the St. Lawrence unless it's represented as a sea zone, and if it's represented as a sea zone enemy ships can enter it, which they shouldn't be able to do unless they control Quebec City and other places on the lower St. Lawrence. In essence, I don't think this will be implemented because it would require giving Montreal access to the sea. So unless in HOI3 river traffic is implemented, which I doubt, this will most likely not be added and it will just be simplified by having Quebec City have a big port again.

 

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P.D.

Thanks for discussing this because I’ve had a heck of a time getting traction anywhere.

The photos are from the mod work done at the Total Realism Project. Notice their Port Hamburg. I don’t know squat about the geography other than it’s not on the vanilla DD map - but in TRP the German fleet loves to sail right up on in there. Granted, while this example is from another mod this is a good example of a navigatable river/ocean inlet.

(This same river passage function is also applied to inland ports of Russia at Petrozavodsk and Volkhov on Lake Ladoga.)

Second, I use the Panama sea zone from vanilla DD as an example, with its separate sea zone - as you point out. While I don’t have data on this, I bet that non lake portions of the canal are as wide than the stretch from Quebec to Montréal?

My two observations do not challenge what I think are good points made by you, but only attempt to show that it would be possible for HOI3 to incorporate Montreal into the action as either a small sea zone (good) or river access (even better). Of course, the uncontested ownership of adjacent Canadian land (Quebec/Montreal/Riviere-du-loop/Sherbrooke) along with the possibility of seasonal access would be conditions for portage?

It is only my opinion, but I think this historical and geographical fix (along with possibly those others modded elsewhere) would be a small programming cost for the added enjoyment.

 

[Phoenix Dace]

Hmm ... I didn't know non-coastal provinces could be given ports. However, the HSR team appears to have managed it. Clever.

That leaves two options for this. One: Give Montreal a port that connects onto the pre-existing seazone.

Two: Create a new seazone ('Mouth of the St. Lawrence' or something) and have it connect to Montreal, with no beach present in Montreal and river access across from QC to (Sherbrooke?).

I don't know. Both are (apparently) feasible. But I wouldn't count on Paradox to make this fix. Since the gameplay works fine with Quebec as the port, there's no real reason gameplay-wise for Montreal to have it. Definitely something that could be added, but because of the above reason it would probably be very low on their list of priorities.

 

[unmerged(66820)]

Previous links

 

[Dustermaker]

Well I guess if Quebec is what we getz, its what we getz, but as for Montreal not having natural deep water access to the ocean, that is factually wrong as far as my research has shown. Just the simple fact that Canada was producing Military ships in Montreal (above posts) makes the port seem necessary dont you think - I mean how'd they get into atlantic partol duty?

“-The Europe-bound convoys from Halifax were not the starting point for all goods from Canada. Rail lines brought materials from mines, mills, and factories as far away as British Columbia. These goods and raw materials were then loaded onto ships in Montreal, and, to a lesser extent, in Québec City, and they then traveled the St. Lawrence River to the major port of Halifax, Nova Scotia, where they linked up with the larger, trans-Atlantic convoys.”
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/Vol7/no3/PDF/14-book1_e.pdf

•1939 Montreal exported more tons of shipping than all other Canadian east coast ports combined.
•Even by 1941 the ports of Montreal, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City still accounted for more tonnage than half of the shipments from the Canadian east coast.
•The sailing time from Montreal to Liverpool, the major convoy arrival point in Britain, was shorter than that for a ship sailing from New York to Liverpool.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/battlegulf/intro

“- Montreal is also an important ocean port and will be considered along with other deep sea ports.”
• From the Atlantic Ocean to Montreal, the present head of ocean navigation on the St. Lawrence, a draft of 30.0 feet is available, adequate for the great majority of ocean shipping.
• The port of Montreal, favorably located at the head of ocean navigation on the St. Lawrence and the foot of inland navigation of the Great Lakes, is a natural shipping and railroad center.
• The St. Lawrence River is ordinarily ice bound for a similar period, but somewhat later about early in December to the latter part of April.
• While there are a number of Canadian lake ports of importance, Montreal is the only one which would not be automatically closed by Blue control of the Lakes.
• While Montreal has the larger and more commodius harbor and terminal facilities, Quebec, due to its physical location, is the key point of the area.
http://www.shunpiking.com/ol0309/0309-WD-UswarplanRED.htm

by this logic, Hamburg should have a port as well. While it would be UBER cool, I just dont think it will ever happen.

edit:srry i didnt read all the way through and just saw the picture right above me.....my bad.