Population

[Tomas the Great]

I did see anywhere a discussion about what is and what is going on with population in the game with the exemption of this indirect Kaigon definition:
4. Basetax is a value of the richness of the province AND also the size of the population outside the city/cities.

Firstly, is it defined what the population number in provinces actually represents? Are these people whole population in the province or just the town? Are these the subjects of the crown or just people on king’s estates or taxed population? With regards to this definition we will realize that in some provinces there are very few people comparing to real history.

Secondly, people should not appear and disappear in the game. If 100 colonists is send on their way the some amount should be deducted from the country (capital, great port, proportionally?), which would simulate the fact that you could find hundreds of square kilometres of abandoned land in Portugal or Spain after their colonies started to prosper.
I don’t understand this 200 colonist or 2000 citizens in capital event.
By the same logic ‘capital attraction’ or ‘new land claimed’ events should be rephrased since now it looks like people just fell from moon. Alternatively some people can leave form provinces/ other country in such a case.

Thirdly, plague event should be more realistic IMHO, I got severe decrease of population (-2500) in northern Finland leaving barely 1000 there. This event should be related with some countries preferably densely populated ones and not these close to the north pole

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Province population is the population of the major city in that province.

The base tax value represents a mix of the size of the rural populatin and the wealth of the land.

Colonization comes from rural people, same with the capital event.

It is hard to customize the plague event for specific countries, you never know where a country might expand. Sweden (with low pop provinces) can take provinces in N germany or holland (high pop).

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Thirdly, plague event should be more realistic IMHO, I got severe decrease of population (-2500) in northern Finland leaving barely 1000 there. This event should be related with some countries preferably densely populated ones and not these close to the north pole

I think most of us would go with Kaigon's definition. i agree about the plague - it would be great if it would just kill 30% of the population. However, to do so in the game would be extremely difficult.

 

[Tomas the Great]

Province population is the population of the major city in that province.

That is fine with me, but than if you compare Prague with Berlin in 1419 you have a problem.

Colonization comes from rural people, same with the capital event.

Ok, so when capital gets 5000 and 2 points of tax revenue, two provinces should be loosing 2500 population and 1 points of tax revenue.

It is hard to customize the plague event for specific countries, you never know where a country might expand. Sweden (with low pop provinces) can take provinces in N germany or holland (high pop).

I agree may be it can be province related than?

 

[Tomas the Great]

I think most of us would go with Kaigon's definition. i agree about the plague - it would be great if it would just kill 30% of the population. However, to do so in the game would be extremely difficult.

Province related plague would be as difficult to write as the Dutch revolts events?
Ok may be it is not so important

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Much more difficult.

 

[Toio]

Much more difficult.

What about a 5 to 10% reduction to every province (based on there population) that has revolted. Can this be done or is it too hard?

 

[unmerged(12680)]

That is fine with me, but than if you compare Prague with Berlin in 1419 you have a problem.

Some city populations might need some tweaking yes. If you have some reliable data please put it forward. Fortunatelly the effects of city pop. are rather mariginal, so it's not a really big deal, other then for aesthetics.

Ok, so when capital gets 5000 and 2 points of tax revenue, two provinces should be loosing 2500 population and 1 points of tax revenue.

Since population number represents the number of people in the province's largest city, and the "Capital Attract" represents people moving in from the countryside, no provinces should lose population. You might make a case for the province loosing some base tax instead, since there are less peasants tending to their crops...

I agree may be it can be province related than?

It would be a nice touche, but it would be plenty of work for a rather small gain...

 

[unmerged(6159)]

What about a 5 to 10% reduction to every province (based on there population) that has revolted. Can this be done or is it too hard?

It could be done. You'd have to work out how to do it, but this would be my suggestion.

For every province in the game make a set of some number of random events. Say for population less than 1000 you lose 100 people, for 1000-3000 you lose 200, for 3000-10000 you lose 650, for 10000-30000 you lose 2000, for 30000 to 100000 you lose 6500 and for more than 100000 you lose 20000. That means you need 6 events for every province in the game. Each of these events is province based and random, replacing one of the plagues in the game.

Still not right because you will only get a plague in one province. Not very sensible.

OK so now each of these events sets a 'plague' flag. Once the plague flag is set, either all random events stop and are replaced by plague events until somehow you reset the flag, or every country gets historical plague events. Each of these events also needs to have multiple versions depending on what the population of the city is.

Well that's an outline, and a very poor one at that. Even then it would need to be improved a lot, as I've described it it has several major problems. But I'm interested to hear what you can come up with.

Like I said, it would be a lot of work

edit: what might be better would be to forget about plagues as random events and script all the historical ones. That would be much less work (although still a lot) and could be a real improvement over 100,000 person cities losing 1000 to the plague. Would need a lot of research on extent and mortality of plagues between 1419 and 1820.

 

[Tomas the Great]

Some city populations might need some tweaking yes. If you have some reliable data please put it forward. Fortunatelly the effects of city pop. are rather mariginal, so it's not a really big deal, other then for aesthetics.

Since population number represents the number of people in the province's largest city, and the "Capital Attract" represents people moving in from the countryside, no provinces should lose population. You might make a case for the province loosing some base tax instead, since there are less peasants tending to their crops..

It would be a nice touche, but it would be plenty of work for a rather small gain...

Yes the loss of taxes in some provinces or may be rephrase the events (may be baby boom due to good governmental policies ).

The other thing is the "colonist events" and the fact that there is in no way shown the depopulation of large areas in Spain and Portugal...

Reliable data are always rare when it came to population (even nowadays with some minorities) but Prague was said to have more than 30000 a century before our time frame while Berlin was barely established from two villages at that time just to keep with the example.

 

[Tomas the Great]

It could be done.

edit: what might be better would be to forget about plagues as random events and script all the historical ones. That would be much less work (although still a lot) and could be a real improvement over 100,000 person cities losing 1000 to the plague. Would need a lot of research on extent and mortality of plagues between 1419 and 1820.

I found several int pages about the topic (even with some pictures, I didn’t really wanted to know) so I will try to link time with losses of population and provinces this week. It will not be probably as accurate as it would deserve, however.
One more thing, can you uses content of int pages for this purpose (description of events) since you cannot really quote here and to rewrite it is difficult given to the very specific topic (the source will be always recognizable).

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Since population number represents the number of people in the province's largest city,

i would argue that this only applies to europe. i other places with less detailed province division it should be the largest few cities.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I would haveto agree with Sun Zi, atleast how we have the AGCEEP setup. For vanilla game province sizes = largest city size was more accurate. Even then, however, many areas in europe and elsewhere have unhistorical city populations, in some places vastly unhistorical to the point they make no sense.

Anyway as to plague events, i don't think they should be dropped as random events. historic plagues (and famines) should only be done if they were 1> Extremely severe or 2> can be easly implimented because of where and when they happened (such as the japenese famines in 1420 and 1425....i can't see anyone getting extra provines as japan by 1420 and highly unlikely in 1425. going much beyond that and for entire country ones i wouldn't do them.

 

[afb]

Is there any possibility to modify the growth rate of cities due to events. So that a plague could mean that for the next twelve months population growth would drop by an insane amount, where as new land claimed might give a small bonus for 60 months. No idea if it's possible, just a thought...

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Is there any possibility to modify the growth rate of cities due to events. So that a plague could mean that for the next twelve months population growth would drop by an insane amount, where as new land claimed might give a small bonus for 60 months. No idea if it's possible, just a thought...

Not possible I'm afraid (unless you want to mess with stability)

 

[Tomas the Great]

So I did little research. Totally above 45 millions people lived in Europe in 1419. Plague killed aprox. 25 millions the century before.

City Year Death toll EU II. Provinces
Danzig 1427 80,000 301
Paris 1466 40,000 385
London 1563 ? 247
Moscow 1570 200,000 270
Lyons 1572 50,000 408
Venice 1576 70,000 370
London 1593 ? 247
Egypt 1603 1,000,000 743, 744, 745, 746, 747
London 1603 38,000 247
London 1603 ? 247
Vienna >1621 19 829 351
Prague >1621 6,000 328
Prague >1625 7,000 328
London 1625 35,417 247
Italy 1630 35-69% 389, 390, 391, 399, 400, 401, 402
London 1636 ? 247
Naples 1656 300,000 393
Amsterda 1663 50,000 399
London 1665 68,596 247
Baltic 1709-13 30%-34% 302, 304, 305, 283, 290, 291
Danzig 1709-13 49% 301
Austria 1711 ? 350, 351, 369, 327
Aix+Arles 1720 25% ???
Marseille 1720 40% 406, 407, 422
Toulon 1720 50%+ 410
Messina 1743 60% 395
the Balkans 1770-1772 small outbreaks random among 352-368

Percentage means of the city. Multiple years the start and end of the out break. It was not a mess when I gave it there... o
These numbers are by no means complete death toll, but rather mix of facts I managed to find on internet. Therefore it is not double-checked.

 

[Tomas the Great]

Hmm, useless effort I guess.

 

[Cleanthes]

Hmm, useless effort I guess.

Hi, this is my first post.

I wanted to let you know that I found your numbers worthwhile. I've been scripting a number of province-triggered events for various things I'd like to see added to the game. In addition to plague related population losses, I think slave raiding caused population changes plenty large enough to include in the game.

By way of example, here is an event I scripted yesterday as I was writing up slave-raiding events, followed by an event incorporating your plague data. After reading this thread, I've altered the numbers some. The city in Apulia province is not, of course, Vieste, but the depopulation of secondary cities is bound to have an impact on the growth of the chief city.

event = {
id = 3940000
trigger =
{ OR = { exists = ALD exists = TUN }
NOT = {religion = sunni } }
random = no
province = 394
name = "Sack of Vieste"
desc = "Barbary pirates raided Apulia and Calabria with seeming impunity. The spectacular sack of Vieste in 1554 netted a reported 6000 slaves for the markets of Africa."

style = 2
date = { day = 29 month = july year = 1554 }
action_a ={
name = "Curse the knaves!"
command = { type = treasury value = -30 }
command = { type = population which = 394 value = -3000 }
command = { type = naval value = -110 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 394 value = -1 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = ALD value = 24 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = TUN value = 24 }
}
action_b ={
name = "Pay ransom to recover as many as possible"
command = { type = treasury value = -120 }
command = { type = population which = 394 value = -1000 }
command = { type = naval value = -210 }
}
action_c ={
name = "Strike back"
command = { type = population which = 394 value = -4000 }
command = { type = war which = ALD }
command = { type = war which = TUN }
command = { type = casusbelli which = MOR value = 48 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = FEZ value = 48 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = TRI value = 48 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = TUR value = 48 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = MAM value = 24 }
command = { type = badboy value = -4 }#Europe applauds antipiracy crusaders
command = { type = stability value = 2 }#part compensation for the stab hit of the war command
}
}

A sample province-specific plague event for Danzig. Note, AGCEEP gives the province a population of 7000 in 1419. Obviously nothing like 80,000 can be subtracted in 1427!

event = {
id = 3010000
random = no
province = 301
name = "Plague"
desc = "Plague continued to ravage Europe for centuries."

style = 2
date = { day = 9 month = november year = 1427 }
offset = 1440

action_a ={
name = "Lament the dead"
command = { type = population which = 301 value = -4000 }
}
action_b ={
name = "Seek scapegoats"
command = { type = population which = 301 value = -4000 }
command = { type = treasury value = 20 }#looting minorities and distributing the same number of goods among fewer people
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
}

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I think it's a good idea. We could then reduce/change the way that plagues work in the random events. The issue would be getting plagues outside Europe right (the American depopulation being an issue I'd like to see addressed).

 

[Tomas the Great]

Thanks a lot Cleanthes. This is something I wanted. The problem with population is something i wanted to address with this thread. Danzig to keep with your example has the starting population simply wrongly in 1419.