POPs or social classes?

[Sarmatia1871]

I firmly believe that enough interaction with the economic/trade aspects of Victoria will eventually lead to brain stem death and probable falling over.

Yes - I think the fact that the only thing Johann positively stated was being taken from Victoria was something as minor as the 'leadership' system, seems to indicate that anything similar to the POP/Economy micromanagement-fest isn't going to make it into EU3!

 

[Skarion]

I firmly believe that enough interaction with the economic/trade aspects of Victoria will eventually lead to brain stem death and probable falling over.

That and the "upgrading" of POPs have to be the most boring part, yeah

The best part have to be the way you got all these fantastic diagrams of imigration and religion

 

[arcorelli]

Yes - I think the fact that the only thing Johann positively stated was being taken from Victoria was something as minor as the 'leadership' system, seems to indicate that anything similar to the POP/Economy micromanagement-fest isn't going to make it into EU3!

The leadership system minor!? War in EU2 is all about the leaders, and war is -well- a very relevant part of the game.

Anyway, POPs could be too much (and too much computing power devoted to them). Some way to have differences strata inside the provinces could be nice, but nothing beyond the CK system I think (although I don't think the CK system could work as such either).

 

[unmerged(57123)]

To be reasonably accurate, I'd guess you'd need the following broad social classes, which could be abstracted to most societies over the period:

* Nobles/Aristocrats
* Clergy
* Bourgeoisie/Mercantile class
* Artisans
* Peasants
(* Maybe a 'dispossessed/landless' grouping as well...)

So, possibly one way to model this while avoiding the controversial POPs would be to have an extended version of the province-based social classes from CK. However, as well as having their relative 'power' and 'loyalty' being modelled, there could be also stats detailing their population, and percentage culture and religion.

This way, you could take account of the precise culture and religious breakdowns in each province (and following on from that, the whole Empire), keep things localized, and save on processer power.

YES

 

[FredricBastiat]

I am not involved in the EU3 design. So that is just a personal comment:

When adding features, they should give something extra to the player. Ask yourself, "How would that make the game more fun, how would it make the game better?" Having pops or population classes just for the sake of having them sounds unlikely to me, and afaik the intent with EU3 is to not further increase micromanagement.

Flori is right, people. EUIII is a game, not a simulation. I do not disagree social class were important in the EUII timeframe, but you people are talking to much about what simulates the 17thc best and not enough about game roles. I know, I design board games (albeit strictly as a hobby) and modify them as well. Adding detail for its own sake is bad. I've killed a number of games by adding too much stuff. Simple is good. Look at the brilliant DBA boardgame. Every feature needs to contribute to the point, not simply exist for its own sake.


The upshot is, rather than saying "xzy social classes were important for xyz reasons and should be stuck in the game somewhere" think "the game is missing internal politcs simulation, so we need x social class whose power gives a stab bonus, y an econ bonus and x an WE reduction bonus" Or whatever.

Hopefully that made sense. It is late, I'm sleepy, so if it didn't make sense I'll try again tomorrow.

 

[Ex Mudder]

I'd like to see some sort of breakdown of population within a province. No Victoria style pops, but enough to model cultural assimilation and religious change. Having a bunch of provinces become 100% Protestant or Calvinist in EU II was overly simplified.

I'd also like some way to model progress of converting, say, Southern Spain or the former Aztec empire into Catholics, or the growth of the protestants, beyond sending missionaries and hoping they work. "You've sucessfully converted x% of the population of Granada. y% are now Spanish Catholics." with a goto button so you can send another one.

I'd also like to see a way to model colonies that are of a different religion than the state religion, It's hard to model the emigration to the future US when colonists are the same religion and culture as the UK.

I'm not sure modelling seperate social classes is necessary - much of that is handled by sliders. By that I mean I don't see manipulating the social classes on a province by province basis to be anything more than micromanagement. But I would like to see some sort of breakdown of the social classes ina province, and have those number shift based on events and sliders.

I would also like to see some migration / assimilation model, for both cultures and religions. Unless such historical shifts were so sudden and severe they are better handled by events.

I guess I just felt that population growth and distribution was overly simplified in EU I & II. But there really should be a way to model religious and minorities in provinces, with the sliders effecting how likely they are to emigrate, assimilate, rebel, or remain.

Preferably Something abstract that doesn't need micromanagement. But it would require research into which minorites were active where, and which were populous enough to show up in a pie or bar graph.

But Victoria style immigrating POPs would be too much. I just hope they model settlers and missionaries a little more organically. The EU I II type of point-and-click-and-hope-it-works is both repetative and annoying. I'd rather say Colonize there, Convert here, Trade there, Spy over here, and have it do so, instead of having to click everytime I get a new unit. And I'd like to see how it's going, in terms of % converted and current population.

If they keep the settler, merchant, missionary units and apply them the same as they did in the earlier games, I would at least like some better - and more controllable - automation. Trade at these COTs, colonize these provinces, spy on these countries, convert these heathen.

But I do feel that some way to view social class disribution, religious diffrences, and cultural minorities on a province by province basis would add depth to the game, without micromanagement.

I'm just trying to figure out how to justify this level of complexity and CPU time to track the relative religions, cultures, social classes, and total populations of some 1700 provinces.

 

[unmerged(29627)]

I'd like to see some sort of breakdown of population within a province. No Victoria style pops, but enough to model cultural assimilation and religious change. Having a bunch of provinces become 100% Protestant or Calvinist in EU II was overly simplified.

I'd also like some way to model progress of converting, say, Southern Spain or the former Aztec empire into Catholics, or the growth of the protestants, beyond sending missionaries and hoping they work. "You've sucessfully converted x% of the population of Granada. y% are now Spanish Catholics." with a goto button so you can send another one.
(CUT)

I'm just trying to figure out how to justify this level of complexity and CPU time to track the relative religions, cultures, social classes, and total populations of some 1700 provinces.

YES, exactly.

shame we won´t see those pops dancing around the map though...

It would be an amazing hari Seldon style sandbox to play with.... *sigh*