"Pops" are very misleading

[MoppCC1]

Why do they in developing diaries refer to the population units in this game as "Victoria 2 style pops"? From what I have seen it is nothing like it, you have about 1-30(maximum probably dictated by planet size) of these abstracted population units per planet and you seem to move them around to change their work occupation. That is not the kind of dynamic population mechanics present in Victoria 2. I understand this decision but I think some people on this forum gets the wrong expectations.

 

[Baloun]

You are quite right.... But honestly - I think that the core of the game is elsewhere so I dont see a big problem in this... It would be nice if the POPs were better represented though...

 

[Zarine]

The pop reference only means that there will be multiple entities per planet (V2 provinces) and they will "evolve" on their own with their ethos and such (V2 militancy, Consciousness... ).
That's all from what I can tell.

 

[QueenoftheIsles]

They had to call them something, and POPs is already easily understandable here on the forums as a "portion of the population" which is more concrete than population in EU4 or CK2. V2, has highly complex POPs, but why do people have to assume all POPs have to be like V2? We are just going to have to accept that POPs will mean more than just V2 POPs now, and is now just a catch-all for any marker or representation of a portion of a total population. That's all it means, the term should not come loaded with anything else.

I do agree though, if they are saying V2 style POPs (I can't remember if they actually said that or not), I wish they would stop saying that as well, since it isn't quite true. They should just say POPs, and not bring in another unrelated game.

 

[aitaituo]

I'm disappointed about the apparent max pop size, too. But they are clearly more Vicky than Civ in terms of what they do.

 

[Danarcis]

I'm disappointed about the apparent max pop size, too. But they are clearly more Vicky than Civ in terms of what they do.

Why would you be disappointed about that? Any planet must have a maximum amount of resources they have to sustain a population. Then increasing this with tech or farms on the planet would make sense

 

[Sonereal]

Why do they in developing diaries refer to the population units in this game as "Victoria 2 style pops"? From what I have seen it is nothing like it, you have about 1-30(maximum probably dictated by planet size) of these abstracted population units per planet and you seem to move them around to change their work occupation. That is not the kind of dynamic population mechanics present in Victoria 2. I understand this decision but I think some people on this forum gets the wrong expectations.

Pops isn't misleading at all. Calling units of population "pops" is pretty standard across the 4x genre, from Endless Legends/Space to Civilization.

 

[aitaituo]

Why would you be disappointed about that? Any planet must have a maximum amount of resources they have to sustain a population. Then increasing this with tech or farms on the planet would make sense

What? I meant that the only screenshots we've seen of POP sizes puts the max POP size at less than 50. This is compared to Vicky 2, where you might have 50 different pops in a single tile, each composed of thousands of people. The max number is more Civ style, which is immersion breaking for me and a lot of people. I'd be happy if they were just multiples of a million instead.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

But that is what Victoria-style POPs were.

If you went into your POPs screen, you would see POPs grouped by having the same culture, religion, and occupation. For example, your average German province might have North German Protestants Farmers, North German Catholic Farmers, South German Protestant Farmers, South German Protestant Farmers, etc. Because of this, each province only had 10-30 different entities represented, again, some combination of all the different cultures, religions, and occupations.

Also, are you aware that POPs represented families, not individual people in Victoria 2? Each POP represented four people: a man, a woman, and their two children.

 

[Velorian]

It's not what I was hoping for but it does simplify other features a bit I suppose.

I now view pops as a more advanced version of Civ-style citizens where each citizen/pop represents a variable amount of people where higher numbers represent increasingly more people. I'd have preferred more detailed pops but at least each pop unit gets to be separate from the others in many ways which despite the abstraction leads to a fair bit of complexity. It also solves the issue with differences in alien numbers to achieve the same goals.

So to sum it up, I was initially disappointed and now cautiously optimistic (and ecstatic about the rest of the game).

 

[Reezy]

As someone who never played Vic2, what is it about the complexity of the POPs there that will be lost in our current understanding of Stellaris POPs? Why do you think it will make for a better/worse experience, in your opinions?

 

[Safehold]

As someone who never played Vic2, what is it about the complexity of the POPs there that will be lost in our current understanding of Stellaris POPs? Why do you think it will make for a better/worse experience, in your opinions?

http://www.victoria2wiki.com/Population

V2 had a lot of micro economic simulations which allowed class transitioning throughout the ages. Stellaris is a space opera type game, so their transition focus isn't around the pops, but on the species itself. Thus more macro, less micro. I surmise people prefer the micro economics of V2, or have never played a macro scale simulation.

 

[Reezy]

http://www.victoria2wiki.com/Population

V2 had a lot of micro economic simulations which allowed class transitioning throughout the ages. Stellaris is a space opera type game, so their transition focus isn't around the pops, but on the species itself. Thus more macro, less micro. I surmise people prefer the micro economics of V2, or have never played a macro scale simulation.

Thanks for the link. It seems like Stellaris is going to focus more on the ideologies of their POPs rather than their profession, which I think makes sense for a wider-scale game.

 

[kreissig]

Thanks for the link. It seems like Stellaris is going to focus more on the ideologies of their POPs rather than their profession, which I think makes sense for a wider-scale game.

Yes. I think the Dev's have come up with a system that works for the Galaxy they've designed. I am among those that like the micro-scale gaming experiences, but I feel like we all will get a unique game with Stellaris.

 

[MoppCC1]

But that is what Victoria-style POPs were.

If you went into your POPs screen, you would see POPs grouped by having the same culture, religion, and occupation. For example, your average German province might have North German Protestants Farmers, North German Catholic Farmers, South German Protestant Farmers, South German Protestant Farmers, etc. Because of this, each province only had 10-30 different entities represented, again, some combination of all the different cultures, religions, and occupations.

Also, are you aware that POPs represented families, not individual people in Victoria 2? Each POP represented four people: a man, a woman, and their two children.

Yes I am aware of this and the point of the post is not about if the game should have the V2 style pops with the economic simulation or not it is about misusing the term "V2 style pops" in the promotion of the game so that people who play Victoria 2 get the feeling of similarity to a brilliant system and thus buying the game. I personally think CIV style pops is perfectly reasonable for a game like this even though economic simulation like in Victoria 2 would be cool.

 

[MoppCC1]

Actually my theory is that paradox is using this game to make this the definition of pops for the EU4 Ck2 and soon to be Hoi4 crowd so that they can implement it in Victoria 3. Then they will in turn only receive outrage from the Victoria 2 players who are a minority and thenot dumbasses like quill 18 will say "So this is Victoria 3, well I never really played Victoria 2 but I CAN say that this is very much like stellaris in its population system". And suddenly you have acceptance for this game and "streamlined" Victoria 3.

 

[Safehold]

Stellaris pops feels more like CK2 vassal kings and barons, with the current iteration. You need them to produce military, science, and other production benefits, but they can also mess up your grand strategy.

A nation will progress with changes in their pops, as literacy goes up, lesser power vs greater power, etc. That's seen in the V2 gameplay concerning the economy, but the Stellaris economy seems pretty streamlined. So instead of being tied to the underlying economic system, Stellaris pops would more naturally fit gameplay wise with the other mechanics of Stellaris, such as scientific traits, exploring and investigating new species, and ideological differences due to politics.

That doesn't exclude or preclude rare events being triggered by rare/strategic resources on Pops, like Spice.

 

[Vinipac]

We've only seen the early-game footage, maybe if the planet gets crowded maybe two or more POPs can occupy the same tile?

I actually think it would be neat to see something like this. As infraestructuer in the tile get developed, more POPs can work there (with diminishing returns if necessary)

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

Yes I am aware of this and the point of the post is not about if the game should have the V2 style pops with the economic simulation or not it is about misusing the term "V2 style pops" in the promotion of the game so that people who play Victoria 2 get the feeling of similarity to a brilliant system and thus buying the game. I personally think CIV style pops is perfectly reasonable for a game like this even though economic simulation like in Victoria 2 would be cool.

Again, this is because you don't understand what Victoria-style POPs are.

They are segments of a population with some shared attributes, e.g. culture, religion, etc, with additional numbers assigned, e.g. how much belong to which ideology, how many are ready to revot, and so forth.

Sounds like what Stellaris is doing to me.

 

[MoppCC1]

Again, this is because you don't understand what Victoria-style POPs are.

They are segments of a population with some shared attributes, e.g. culture, religion, etc, with additional numbers assigned, e.g. how much belong to which ideology, how many are ready to revot, and so forth.

Sounds like what Stellaris is doing to me.

I dont think you have the clear picture of the difference here. What you have said is true but thing is Victoria 2 offers a much larger diversity in pops than this game since pops in that game are specified not only according to what you said but also their profession. The pops in Victoria 2 are also quantified which I doubt stellaris "pops" will be BUT the most important thing is that there is an indepth economic simulation for all these pops and since there is no simulated economy in Stellaris I dont see how these "pops" could in any way be as alive and dynamic as the ones in Victoria 2