Popping in to make a suggestion re:Paragons

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Pancakelord

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There is one sort of, though it's empire unique and I'm not sure what an "External Leader" is.
View attachment 981071
When you go in the leader pool you get 3 categories of leaders - ones you hired, ones from your "domestic" leaderpool, and ones from allied/friendly nations. E.g. in my last game I could hire a scholaria-traited scientist, because my military-pact ally had a sholaria that I was also on good terms with.
1683851988479.png
1683852116775.png
1683852152450.png

This was taken in 2200 - the common ground origin essentially lets you start with a double-sized leader hiring pool. I can immediately grab a Zealot Admiral, without taking Crusader (as my CG ally rolled with it randomly). You wont see the external pool at first normally - or if noone else likes you (e.g. as a purifier).

That building you linked is basically just to turn on paragons periodically petitioning to join you.. IMO it's already getting a bit old (been restarting a few times to try different civics) and i've not looked yet, but hopefully we can toggle them off in the notification menu.
 
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There is one sort of, though it's empire unique and I'm not sure what an "External Leader" is.
I'm pretty sure that's not what that building does. An "External Leader" is a leader generated in another pool of leaders (the external leader pool) that comes from neighboring empires, usually with their primary species and ethics.

And as a side note I agree, I dislike the decrease in the number of leaders from a RP perspective too, I don't really care if the newer and fewer leaders do just as much as the older, greater number leaders I just want more people, my massive empire should have many people of note not less!
 
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Fermi's_Solution

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From a raw numbers perspective, yeah, you don't need a governor for every planet. The planets can run fine without it. However, considering they just added the option in for individual planet governors, it's really, REALLY counterintuitive (and not fun) to say "Hey, here's this new option that you can't really take advantage of because of an arbitrary limit we're also adding in." Even if they kept the number the same but made each type of leader have their own pool (effectively multiplying your cap by 4), you'd still only end up with enough governors for each sector with maybe 1 or two extra for the powerhouse planets that already have a large population. Yes, this is presuming a huge galaxy, aka 1000 stars, but if the game has an option for a bigger galaxy then you should have options to genuinely play in that bigger galaxy without being penalized for it.

Also the argument flat out fails when it comes to scientists since the game has been designed for years around science ships requiring a scientist to man it. By saying that I CAN put a governor on each planet at the cost of having enough scientists for just the basic stuff, they're effectively saying that I can get some minor stacking boosts to some planets at the cost of engaging with a core part of the game, exploration (which includes way more than just revealing the galaxy). That kind of cost is just untenable. I MIGHT, MAYBE, play ONE, 1!!!!! game without doing (or having severely minimal) exploration at some point just to see what it's like being a true isolationist. But considering how much anomalies, archaeology sites, and all the other parts of exploration add to the game....HELL NO! That's not a play style that I'm interested in beyond a very, very short passing curiosity.
I think it's pretty clear Paradox wants to (again) nerf wide empires. This time they're bringing back a penalty they tried a while ago (leader cap), which originally didn't work as a penalty because wide empires could either steamroll the extra costs with one or two extra admin worlds, or they would just not have leaders at all since, at the time, it was widely agreed leaders were pointless as they only gave minor bonuses relative to their sprawl penalties. (Seriously: unless you went to crazy lengths to build really good leaders, on average you were only getting +10% to one specific thing by filling that oh-so-coveted leader slot.)

With leaders giving more substantial bonuses now, it makes sense that Paradox would try the leader cap penalty again. This time, apparently (if going by your own example), it seems they've managed to hit the fabled balance of just barely penalizing wide empires by, of all things, giving them too many options.

The argument you're trying to make, that wide empires suffer unfairly from leader cap limits, runs into a problem when we consider that the council is more valuable to wide empires than to tall ones. As you handily point out, smaller empires can afford to stuff their core sector full of governors (consider the following: single-sector technocracy with a ringworld), whereas larger empires struggle to even have a governor in every sector.

For a wide empire, the council is actually more beneficial because it gives you a way to apply bonuses even to planets or fleets your leaders can't personally manage. Whereas, for a smaller empire, the council is less beneficial than ecu-fying every planet in your core sector and giving each its own personal governor. The better question is how many planets (/fleets) it takes before the empire-wide bonuses of a council start to outpace the single-target bonuses of a local leader... but as long as the amount is "more than you'd need to win anyways," then it remains fairly well balanced.

So, in terms of governors/admirals at least, I don't think the new leader/council system is poorly balanced. I think it's actually a pretty good way to differentiate wide gameplay from tall gameplay by giving them different priorities (empire-wide buffs vs single-planet/fleet buffs), and a better way to differentiate military/econ/tech-focused empires by putting leader class requirements on key council seats (e.g. admiral-heavy council has better fleets but few/none tech or econ boosts; compare to before where bigger empires were better at everything by virtue of having everything). I like the change, I see it as strictly beneficial both for wide and for tall, and I honestly don't understand the criticism against it except for the issue with scientists.

As for the issue with scientists, I think all I can really say is I disagree with the argument you're trying to make because it's entirely arbitrary: you're trying to say they can't change a core feature of the game just because it's one they haven't changed before. You're saying this for Stellaris, the game which changes core features so often you have to relearn the whole game at least twice a year. And you're saying this strictly as a matter of personal preference, which is that you don't like playing small or isolationist empires. Since it's an argument from a preference I don't share, there isn't really anything I need to say in argument, except maybe for "yes they obviously should work on scientist roles some more, but as a hotfix the suggested course could work fine for now."
 
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It is particularly strange to me that I end up with >50% of my leaders on the council. That just... Seems wrong.

I would advocate for a tiered limits system, so say the current cap of 6 stays the same but now only counts Veteran leaders, then further tiers going up in level/special traits.

So, say I have 6 Veteran leaders, I choose to lose Unlucky Number 7's application to be promoted in the bureaucracy. This means they do very little, but I can get more (low level) leaders if necessary, without a scaling penalty because I wanted to survey more than two systems at a time. Or even make the tiers hard limits, if you have a cap of 6 Veteran leaders you CANNOT level up any leaders to Veteran. I like that there is a limit (not least because it's a real advantage for tall builds which I prefer) but the limit goes too far, from balance to "leader expansion DLC is a leader downgrade."
 
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It is particularly strange to me that I end up with >50% of my leaders on the council. That just... Seems wrong.

I would advocate for a tiered limits system, so say the current cap of 6 stays the same but now only counts Veteran leaders, then further tiers going up in level/special traits.

So, say I have 6 Veteran leaders, I choose to lose Unlucky Number 7's application to be promoted in the bureaucracy. This means they do very little, but I can get more (low level) leaders if necessary, without a scaling penalty because I wanted to survey more than two systems at a time. Or even make the tiers hard limits, if you have a cap of 6 Veteran leaders you CANNOT level up any leaders to Veteran. I like that there is a limit (not least because it's a real advantage for tall builds which I prefer) but the limit goes too far, from balance to "leader expansion DLC is a leader downgrade."
I actually really like this cap on veteran leaders much better than the current, and would allow you to have a few "important" people, of which some are probably on the council, while still allowing for you to have a larger roster of lesser leaders to fill most of the roles you would want.
 
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Fermi's_Solution

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This seems like a narrowminded approach and a poor decision when "wide" and "tall" are determined by galaxy settings like Star numbers, Habitable worlds, and number of Empires.
Influenced by, yes. Determined by, no.

There's certainly less incentive to go wide in a smaller galaxy setting (and you certainly wouldn't use civics or origins meant for wide empires). But, that's little different from saying there's less incentive to choose origins that aren't Life Seeded, Shattered Ring, or Void Dwellers when you're playing with 0 guaranteed worlds and/or x0.25 habitable worlds, or that Post-Apocalypse "becomes really good" in a galaxy with x5 primitives.

It isn't really a relevant thing to say, because it isn't possible to balance the game for every possible setting the player can toggle. For that reason, any "balance" discussion has to assume a standard setting... when you're talking about edge cases where a setting can make a certain option better or worse, what you're really talking about is a hypothetical player who prefers certain galaxy settings because it makes their favorite / least favorite option better or worse.

It is particularly strange to me that I end up with >50% of my leaders on the council. That just... Seems wrong.

I would advocate for a tiered limits system, so say the current cap of 6 stays the same but now only counts Veteran leaders, then further tiers going up in level/special traits.

So, say I have 6 Veteran leaders, I choose to lose Unlucky Number 7's application to be promoted in the bureaucracy. This means they do very little, but I can get more (low level) leaders if necessary, without a scaling penalty because I wanted to survey more than two systems at a time. Or even make the tiers hard limits, if you have a cap of 6 Veteran leaders you CANNOT level up any leaders to Veteran. I like that there is a limit (not least because it's a real advantage for tall builds which I prefer) but the limit goes too far, from balance to "leader expansion DLC is a leader downgrade."
That's an interesting solution... I feel like it's the sort of thing that could get really cool (and might even enable) internal politics, especially if there's an option to handle staffing/leadership for your government's different institutions.
 
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Influenced by, yes. Determined by, no.

It isn't really a relevant thing to say, because it isn't possible to balance the game for every possible setting the player can toggle. For that reason, any "balance" discussion has to assume a standard setting... when you're talking about edge cases where a setting can make a certain option better or worse, what you're really talking about is a hypothetical player who prefers certain galaxy settings because it makes their favorite / least favorite option better or worse.
I can understand the argument, and I actually do agree with you to a degree that they can't do propper balancing for every possible scenario. However, as far as I am aware it is not unusual for people to play on larger galaxy sizes (at least the people I know play on the larger ones), where the issue is more pronounced, and thus isn't really an edge case.
That's an interesting solution... I feel like it's the sort of thing that could get really cool (and might even enable) internal politics, especially if there's an option to handle staffing/leadership for your government's different institutions.
That is an excellent point I had not even thought of, that could enable some interesting power dynamics for internal politics. Additionally the people in power could possibly force demands onto the country if they have a strong power base... I just really like where they could go with this.
 
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That is an excellent point I had not even thought of, that could enable some interesting power dynamics for internal politics. Additionally the people in power could possibly force demands onto the country if they have a strong power base... I just really like where they could go with this.
It would enable doing actually interesting things with high level leaders, because not all of your leaders would be high level. And fixes the problem of "why can't I get some idiot to survey a system on the edge of my space without my ruler spontaneously developing Extreme Stupidity and leveling more slowly."

Your level 10 leader who is also the minister of defense should be a bigger deal than is currently the case. Your level 2 leader who has only ever surveyed systems and will only ever survey systems should not, and is currently just as big a deal as the level 10 one.
 

Fermi's_Solution

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I can understand the argument, and I actually do agree with you to a degree that they can't do propper balancing for every possible scenario. However, as far as I am aware it is not unusual for people to play on larger galaxy sizes (at least the people I know play on the larger ones), where the issue is more pronounced, and thus isn't really an edge case.
Oh, no, my default is definitely 1,000 when the 5k-star mod is offline, and I was trying to speak from a 1k-star perspective. I'm pretty sure the person I replied to was trying to say the problems I mentioned in the post they replied to only happen on larger settings, to which I was trying to say larger settings should be used as the default for discussions since it's the more popular setting.
 

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Oh, no, my default is definitely 1,000 when the 5k-star mod is offline, and I was trying to speak from a 1k-star perspective. I'm pretty sure the person I replied to was trying to say the problems I mentioned in the post they replied to only happen on larger settings, to which I was trying to say larger settings should be used as the default for discussions since it's the more popular setting.
Ah, fair enough. Having noted this, I should play on a smaller galaxy size (and maybe turn down habital planet cound) to see if the problems are as pronounced, as they seems like they won't be. It's worth a test for sure.
 

IcyFalcon98777

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May 11, 2023
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It's not that hard to recognize that the smaller the galaxy the less leaders you need/want. You're far less likely to create 10+fleets on a particularly small galaxy, but late game huge galaxy that's just bog standard. You probably CAN'T have 50+ worlds colonized on a particularly small galaxy without having already conquered the whole darn thing, thus lessening the "need" for governors. But on a huge galaxy? Base 6 is an insult. I really don't care that at least one person on the development team thinks it is better design (particularly arrogant claim there). It's not. It's simply not fun, plain and simple. It's why I actually now play with a mod (changes the base cap to 50). It's not the fix I would ultimately want, but it's working.
 

Dementor4

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Feb 19, 2017
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I would say that science vessels without a scientist should be allowed to explore and survey, but not interact with anomalies. Some special projects would require a scientist present an others would not. Archeological dig sites could be progressed (slowly) in the early stages without a scientist but the longer digs would get "stuck" at some point unless a big brain shows up to take it to the end.
 
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