where can i get the unlimited patch?
and how fast do pops move aproxametely to provinces they r nedded in???
and how fast do pops move aproxametely to provinces they r nedded in???
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Unlimited patch: look in the mods forum.
Pop movement: depends if they are free to move or not.
Employed pops are very unlikely to move. And apparently, unemployed pops that could be employed where they are (for example, you closed the RGO to make them unemployed) don't want to move either (I hear. I haven't tested it).
I don't know how craftsmen and clerks move (haven't tested), but unemployed farmers/labourers will trickle slowly away. About six or seven hundred a month, they'll leave the province they're in and move to a state where they will have employment. If there are jobs available in all RGOs in the state, the migration target will cycle (In 3-province state ABC, in month 1 province A gets immigrants, in month 2 province B gets another batch, in month 3 province C gets people, and then A gets more in month 4.
In case the RGO has pops below 50k of the same culture, the newcomers will merge with those. If there are pops above 50k, they'll be truncated to 50k and everyone above that will be merged with the newcomers. So, if the place is empty, you get a new small pop with some hundreds of people. If there is a pop of 25k there, that pop will get some more people (bad result for you, usually). The fun part is when you have 50k+ pops. Example: Two 53k+ pops, one 47k one, and a pop migrating there. The result is 3 50k pops and the balance (over 3k) forms a new pop. You can use this kind of stuff to get yourself great amounts of pops, just fill up the RGO in a province and one split pop will migrate away and produce at least one new pop/province in the target state.
Pop movement: depends if they are free to move or not.
Employed pops are very unlikely to move. And apparently, unemployed pops that could be employed where they are (for example, you closed the RGO to make them unemployed) don't want to move either (I hear. I haven't tested it). I don't know how craftsmen and clerks move (haven't tested), but unemployed farmers/labourers will trickle slowly away. About six or seven hundred a month, they'll leave the province they're in and move to a state where they will have employment. If there are jobs available in all RGOs in the state, the migration target will cycle (In 3-province state ABC, in month 1 province A gets immigrants, in month 2 province B gets another batch, in month 3 province C gets people, and then A gets more in month 4.
In case the RGO has pops below 50k of the same culture, the newcomers will merge with those. If there are pops above 50k, they'll be truncated to 50k and everyone above that will be merged with the newcomers. So, if the place is empty, you get a new small pop with some hundreds of people. If there is a pop of 25k there, that pop will get some more people (bad result for you, usually). The fun part is when you have 50k+ pops. Example: Two 53k+ pops, one 47k one, and a pop migrating there. The result is 3 50k pops and the balance (over 3k) forms a new pop. You can use this kind of stuff to get yourself great amounts of pops, just fill up the RGO in a province and one split pop will migrate away and produce at least one new pop/province in the target state.
In terms of POP movement, I can say from direct, certain observation that POPs who could be employed (ie. you just closed the factory in which thye were working) do indeed take a long, long time to move. In fact, I never so those guys from my liquor distillery actually go anywhere, and I waited five years.
Second, POPs who percieve themselves as being unemployed will actually move quite quickly, perhaps in matter of months from the time new factories start construction (yes, start, not finish).
In my current GC game as Austria (in which, by the way, I'm now fighting a badboy war against France, Prussia, and the Ottomans simultaneously--and i have a border with France because I took southern Germany)...
But anyway, in my current game, Austria starts out with (or I have, at least) a whole bunch of very small Clerk POPs--Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Slovaks or about 500 and below in size. Whenever I build a new factory somewhere, those guys move like the wind towards it. They're in a new state in a matter of weeks, and they're certainly there when the factories are finally finished.
Second, POPs who percieve themselves as being unemployed will actually move quite quickly, perhaps in matter of months from the time new factories start construction (yes, start, not finish).
In my current GC game as Austria (in which, by the way, I'm now fighting a badboy war against France, Prussia, and the Ottomans simultaneously--and i have a border with France because I took southern Germany)...
But anyway, in my current game, Austria starts out with (or I have, at least) a whole bunch of very small Clerk POPs--Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Slovaks or about 500 and below in size. Whenever I build a new factory somewhere, those guys move like the wind towards it. They're in a new state in a matter of weeks, and they're certainly there when the factories are finally finished.
Would certainly be nice if my U.S. game was like that. But no, I have factories and RGO's in the great plains standing empty for years just waiting for people to come.
If you don't have unemployed pops somewhere, where will they come from? They don't leave their jobs.
They don't leave their jobs.
600-700 pops migrating is far to less, i have provinces with about 60 unemployed POP´s and then there are provinces with 1 POP and a lvl 4 RGO. In my opinion migration of unemployed should be based on a percantage of the unemloyed POP´s in a province, the more unemployed POP´s the bigger the migration.
Dumb question, but are you sure they're the right kind of POPs? Unemployed Clerks won't go to RGOs. Only farmers and laborers will.Polenpaule said:
Best way to get migration to the plain states.....
Build factory/factorys...start out with just one for simpistiy sake
convert 3 native pops to craftmens
covert 2 of your yankee pops to clerks(preferablely large pops back east assuming your playing US,but works for any nation)
*edit* make sure this 2 clerks are unemployed
make sure that the plain states are the only unfill factory
the clerks will migriate to that state....once they reach a reasonable size convert them back to farmer/laborers....rinse and repeat
Build factory/factorys...start out with just one for simpistiy sake
convert 3 native pops to craftmens
covert 2 of your yankee pops to clerks(preferablely large pops back east assuming your playing US,but works for any nation)
*edit* make sure this 2 clerks are unemployed
make sure that the plain states are the only unfill factory
the clerks will migriate to that state....once they reach a reasonable size convert them back to farmer/laborers....rinse and repeat
Memnon said:
No, he's quite right, the migration rate from a single province is capped at about 1100 a month, which can be extremely low amount for a Chinese province. I think that the whole POPs should migrate all at once, otherwise there is potential for arbitrage, when you can split one big POP into many tiny POPs and get much more out of them due to non-linearity of POP output.
Shh... it took me a long time to master this technique, lets not get it taken away.DGuller said:
King Tiger said:
The effort to do that and the cost is just to extreme. That in itself would make such an act ludicrous. I've had mixed success by not expanding the RGO's on the east coast. It's work somewhat for a few of the states, the Northeast though is still underpopulated along with the far south.
I don't find the cost that extreme. You probably start doing this kind of thing when you're already making quite the profit (it just takes a while to get pops emmigrating from most places). And even if you're paying for an upgrade or two a month, you'll probably make enough to pay for it easily. And the relocated pops will supposedly make more money in their new positions. The amount of work this would require might put you off, though.
I still think the player should be able to split and merge pops, so I disagree with that. Having some measure of control over the occasional pop is quite good. And it helps reduce the advantage of some countries with multiple cultures and religions.
I still think the player should be able to split and merge pops, so I disagree with that. Having some measure of control over the occasional pop is quite good. And it helps reduce the advantage of some countries with multiple cultures and religions.
Just how much more micromanagement does this game need? I think the purpose of POPs was to be a population unit, not be a stack of humans held together. I think that the current immigration model undermines this greatly, and the last thing I want to do is split the POPs to optimize output. Taken to the extreme, you would want to split every POP down to the size of 100.
DGuller said:
Well, much of the micromanagement in the current game comes from always having to contrive ways of having lots of tiny POPs of craftsmen and clerks to staff your factories, and always double checking before you convert a POP that there's not another POP in the same province they'll merge with.
I think a "split pop" button would reduce micromanagement if implemented well. A stack should be a certain minimum size before the "split" button would be enabled. 20k - 25k could be one possible minimum, then you wouldn't have to worry about the split pops remerging.
For a less radical impact, I would suggest a minimum of 50k before splitting , then the split pops created would be at least as large as the 25k currently POPs spawned off when a POP reaches 100K. You wouldn't be able to split POPs very often, just enough to give you a bit more flexibility. You'd have a larger number of worker POPs in the 25-50k range, and you wouldn't have to spend so much time contriving ways to get lots of tiny POPs of craftsmen, and then moaning when they recombined.
I think "flattening out" the POPs into 25-50k groups would also have a more realistic effect, and reduce the effect of the rather odd production forumula, where 5 tiny POPs of < 500 is more productive than one large POP of 100.
Of course, then the AI would have to be adjusted to actually use the split button. The AI would probably be best off splitting POPs as soon as they reached the min size.
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OTOH, a much simpler change would be to just lower the size a POP reaches before spawning a new POP 25% of its size. So, instead of a 100K POP spawning off 25k you'd have perhaps a 60k POP spawning off 15k. Hopefully the 100k parameter is just one line of code in the "POP spawning" routine, so the code change would be minimal. Once again, you'd have a larger number of medium size POPs, and you'd get fresh ones of 15k (as opposed to 25k) more often.
There would be no need to change the scenario input files, just leave the POPs the way they are in the current scenario starts, and any POPs over 60k could spawn off normally over the first few days of the scenario.
If one took this approach, one could also make the "spawn threshold" a tunable parameter in db\economy\misc.txt. Then people could leave it at 100k or tweak it to their own taste.
Just a few thoughts,
Stilicho
The problem with shifting the max pop size (AFAIK, the "spawn threshold" is the max pop size, I don't think it makes sense otherwise) down is remaking the whole pop setup for every country in the game. For some reason, I don't think Paradox would want to do that.
Gwalcmai said:The problem with shifting the max pop size (AFAIK, the "spawn threshold" is the max pop size, I don't think it makes sense otherwise) down is remaking the whole pop setup for every country in the game. For some reason, I don't think Paradox would want to do that.
Of course they wouldn't want to redo all the POP setups in all the scenario files. Leave the maximum_POP_size at 100,000. Have a new parameter, "spawn_POP_size" defined to 60,000. Change the spawning code from
(if POPsize > maximum_POP_size) then spawn()
to
(if POPsize > spawn_POP_size) then spawn();
DON'T bother changing the scenario files, just let the spawn() routines kick off over the first couple days of the scenario. 100K would remain the official max size of a POP, but such POPs would only in practice exist during the initial start of the scenario.
Of course, I haven't seen the code, so I can't guarantee it would be this simple.
I proposed this idea as just a possible alternative to the "POP-splitting" proposal, which would require not only a new button, but teaching the AI how to use it. Adjusting POP-spawning *could* be as simple as tweaking some parameters, and possibly adding the "spawn_size" parameter to ..\db\economy\misc.txt to make people who like to tweak things happy.Personally, I'd be happy to see either this tweak to the spawning code or a "Split POP" button, whichever is easier to implement. I would just like a larger number of medium-size POPs (as opposed to a large number of tiny ones and a few big ones) so everyone would have more flexibility.
Best regards,
Stilicho
Agreed. Much game-balance is predicated on having POP sizes cross various thresholds at predictable times and either increasing production at home or triggering migration. Changing the thresholds will require changing the setup if the similar result is desired.Gwalcmai said:The problem with shifting the max pop size (AFAIK, the "spawn threshold" is the max pop size, I don't think it makes sense otherwise) down is remaking the whole pop setup for every country in the game. For some reason, I don't think Paradox would want to do that.
