POP Types - Artisans, Bureaucrats, more??

[Balesir]

Just a random thought that occurred to me while pondering the awesomeness that (I hope) is going to be Vicky II; sailors.

I should elaborate o I mean, there are POPs for soldiers, but for naval units there is a distinctly different requirement - especially during the age of sail when formal naval training was not fully developed. Particularly with the slightly smaller province size in Vicky2, I am wondering if there is room for fisheries (very important in some areas in the late 19th/early 20th centuries) and consequent maritime populations?

There may be openings for other POPs, too, but this was one particular one that struck me...

 

[unmerged(22834)]

It's a downward spiral. You could include a million different pop types. I think the current level of abstraction is adequate.

I think too many people have an overzealous desire for Victoria to be a pure simulator rather than a game.

 

[OHgamer]

I think too many people have an overzealous desire for Victoria to be a pure simulator rather than a game.

Engrave that in bronze.

In the end, it is a game, not a simulator. And too many different pop types might cause computer processors to spontaneously combust due to data overload.

Though hopefully POP types will be included in txt files and thus modders who want to create an even more refined depiction of society will be able to do so.

In the end, modders will have to experiment and see how much load the game can handle adding more things, be they POPs, provinces, countries, etc.

 

[Balesir]

I agree entirely with keeping things as simple as possible - but when I look at the period in history, and the size of the provinces on the new map, I become very dubious about simply abstracting fisheries and maritime populations out. With Vicky1 it worked OK; provinces were large enough that it was always arguably a minority occupation. But with the rather smaller provinces and with military units "tied" to their "home POPs" it seems worth consideration and study, at least. Fisheries, merchant marine and naval power are hardly a negligible feature of the period.

 

[Vricklund]

Wouldn't fishermen basicly be farmer pops in fishing wharf RGOs?

 

[Balesir]

Maybe, but it would/should be cheaper and easier for these to convert to sailors/crew for naval vessels. Farmers on a coast more ready to convert to sailors, or coastal "soldiers" being needed for naval units might work as simplified schema for this. TThe thing to avoid would be large navies in countries with hardly any coast.

 

[CatalanNation]

Though hopefully POP types will be included in txt files and thus modders who want to create an even more refined depiction of society will be able to do so.

In the end, modders will have to experiment and see how much load the game can handle adding more things, be they POPs, provinces, countries, etc.

Exactly, I can't wait for a mod of Vicky II depicting the Classical Era ala EU:R.

 

[Piddyx]

It's a downward spiral. You could include a million different pop types. I think the current level of abstraction is adequate.

I agree. Where would you stop? Servant pops to clean up after the Aristocrats?

 

[Alexander Seil]

As long as we're advocating weird POP types, the first thing to split out would be serfs from smallholders from rural laborers, not fishermen.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

I have the opposite opinion: There are already way too many POP types, for example the division farmers/laborers makes no sense except for flavor reasons.

 

[unmerged(56465)]

I have the opposite opinion: There are already way too many POP types, for example the division farmers/laborers makes no sense except for flavor reasons.

They have different voting patterns.

 

[Lloyien]

They have different voting patterns.

In Vicky I, at least, random events were also tailored to either farmers or labourers, too.

 

[Bezborg]

Maybe, but it would/should be cheaper and easier for these to convert to sailors/crew for naval vessels. Farmers on a coast more ready to convert to sailors, or coastal "soldiers" being needed for naval units might work as simplified schema for this. TThe thing to avoid would be large navies in countries with hardly any coast.

But you failed to notice that the "farmer" pop is an abstraction for manual laborers in the food/agriculture industry (as I see it)... There are no "farmers on a coast" as there are people who have farms near a coast... It's an abstraction for people involved in a certain category of jobs

 

[unmerged(63310)]

POP types seem well balanced in game terms right now. Adding more would make everything have to be rebalanced without much benefit as the economic system and government also depends on the distribution of POP types.

It would be nice to see navy size restricted to number and size of ports/naval bases so something like Russia wanting port access and the great game makes some strategic sense in the V2. Would also make historic naval powers more realistic. IE- both Japan and England are islands and USA coastline is long. Only Italy and maybe Scandinavia would benefit more if they could afford it ahistorically though Sweden and Denmark did maintain rather large navies for a long time in this era.

 

[Colon]

But you failed to notice that the "farmer" pop is an abstraction for manual laborers in the food/agriculture industry (as I see it)... There are no "farmers on a coast" as there are people who have farms near a coast... It's an abstraction for people involved in a certain category of jobs

I believe the idea is that farmers represented self-employed people working their 'own' land, whereas labourers are hired workers. That's why coffee RGOs employ labourers even though it's actually a farming activity. And as mentioned before, farmers have different voting patterns from labourers. Historically, farmers tended to remain conservative, whereas for instance miners were typically attracted to socialism.
The political differences is probably also one of the main reasons why there's a distinction between clerks and craftsmen, though they both work in factories.

 

[telesien]

I believe the idea is that farmers represented self-employed people working their 'own' land, whereas labourers are hired workers. That's why coffee RGOs employ labourers even though it's actually a farming activity. And as mentioned before, farmers have different voting patterns from labourers. Historically, farmers tended to remain conservative, whereas for instance miners were typically attracted to socialism.
The political differences is probably also one of the main reasons why there's a distinction between clerks and craftsmen, though they both work in factories.

Was there even a agricultural heavy nation which turned to socialism? And I don't mean certain big bear, where certain "Iron man" came from certain bank-filled country with the help of certain soldier-filled country to spread the word of socialism.

Clerks are much different then crafstmen. They are the only modern intelectual POP and member of middle class. At least it used to be so in Vicky 1. Now clergy being more teaching profession, they have more competition.

 

[Andrelvis]

Engrave that in bronze.

In the end, it is a game, not a simulator. And too many different pop types might cause computer processors to spontaneously combust due to data overload.

Though hopefully POP types will be included in txt files and thus modders who want to create an even more refined depiction of society will be able to do so.

In the end, modders will have to experiment and see how much load the game can handle adding more things, be they POPs, provinces, countries, etc.

OHgamer, would you know where I could find data on population composition of the era, in regards to occupation or class? That would help a lot to add new pop types.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

This would only be a good idea if the Sailor POP started singing a sea-shanty in a pirate voice whenever you clicked on him.

EDIT: And did a nautical jig.