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Viscount of Schaefer

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I've been thinking on how many catholic Holy Lands I have seen throughout time - and how those break my immersion. As such, I began to think of ways to solve this problem. I already made culture and religion change be harder via settings, but that just delays conversion.
Way I see it, there's only two solutions - making the AI not convert through a tag or something or taking the POP system and putting in ck2. Somehow. I don't understand programmi at all, but I really like and admire the POP system and believe it should be on all Paradox games.
I understand that maybe CK2 isn't able to use the POP system, but maybe in future CK games?
 

treb

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the problem with population is twofold first we have very little to no concrete data for most places and where we do there are huge difrences in population density for example in 1066 with the doomsday book england had a population of ~2,000,000. Constantinople at around that time had a population of at least a million. There was half a kingdoms population in one province, try balancing that...
 

PK_AZ

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1. Which one?
2. How is it supposed to work with CK being character-based game?
 

Viscount of Schaefer

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1. Which one?
2. How is it supposed to work with CK being character-based game?
1. Vicky 2's
2. One thing doesn't have anything to do with another. POP system concerns the province and administration, not the character flavor. For spawning characters, maybe it could be random or you could choose which culture you want.

Just got back home, sorry for just answering now.
 

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I don't see any likelihood of getting a pop system in CKII. It might be an element for CK3.
 

jwalche

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the problem with population is twofold first we have very little to no concrete data for most places and where we do there are huge difrences in population density for example in 1066 with the doomsday book england had a population of ~2,000,000. Constantinople at around that time had a population of at least a million. There was half a kingdoms population in one province, try balancing that...

And if we add India which probably had as much population or more as all other in-game realms combined.

"the basis of the available historical evidence, K.S. Lal concluded that the population of Indian subcontinent in 1000 was about 200 million"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_Muslim_Population_in_Medieval_India

Another source says that global population in 1000 was between 254 - 345 million.
http://www.ecology.com/population-estimates-year-2050/

Which doesn't add up with China. Nonetheless, India probably had as much as all other in game realms combined.

Population system makes more sense in a localized rather homogeneous system such as within Western Europe or within China only.
 
Last edited:

Furleppe

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How does Imperator's POP system work? I haven't read the dev diaries.

https://imperator.paradoxwikis.com/Population

tl;dr 4 pop types (easy moddable and we can add more), every pop has a religion, culture and provide different things like manpower, tax income or research (read wiki for more info)

They are very simple and certainly not as detailed as Vic pops but that's why I can see them work in CK3. Historical population numbers won't really be a huge problem, you can have big cities like Constantinople have huge amount of pops and poor areas miniscule amount of them (balancing them won't be as hard as Vic style pops, I imagine), you can have religious/culture minorities in provinces. They would also be better at representing difference between civilized and tribal realms compared to CK2 "goverment types".

In an game focused on characters we don't need detailed population mechanic imho, but it's better to have something than nothing at all
 
Last edited:

Nyrael

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POPs really wouldn't be very useful here, as the world revolved more around nobilities rather than general populace.

Additionally, that's what provincial religion represents: religion of low-level nobilities. Peasantries just served whoever was in charge.

And lets not get to technical aspects! The character system alone eats great amounts of system resources.
 

ow592

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what would it add to the game?

You can represent rebellions without a pop-system and there are too little stratas in CK to make it a viable game mechanic
 

BeyondExpectation

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There's a link to such a concept (for CK3) in my sig, which I'll copy here:

There’s a lot wrong with the “Holding” system of world construction in Crusader Kings 2. The way its tied to government type results in numerous problems, such as the Byzantine Empire turning tribal and being unable to become feudal, kingdoms randomly turning into theocracies and an ahistoric inability of the King of France to hold Paris himself. Furthermore, the system of “spend money to both make money and permanently have more levy” causes areas to always progress unless attacked by nomads and causes easy minmaxing with no-brainer building choices. It also enhances blobbing as there’s no disadvantage to having lots of army buildings in the capital – in reality, a large rich empire would be constantly spending enormous quantities of money to keep thousands of armed men happy, whether they were in fortified positions or not.

My proposal is very radical, but don’t worry; the POPs have nowhere near Victoria level of detail[1]. Each would inhabit a province, while having a religion, culture, agitation, number of people and way of life. Agitation is very similar to revolt risk, while way of life does not correspond exactly to any mechanic in Crusader Kings 2 but is most closely linked to government type.

There are four possible ways of life: nomadic, tribal[2], settled and urban. Nomadic is the way of life in the steppes of central Asia and the interior of Arabia, among others. A majority of a nomadic POP can be raised by a strong ruler to wage war with relative ease, but such POPs only give the tiniest trickle of income. Tribal is the way of life of the Daylamites in the Elburz, Albanians and Montenegrins in the Balkans, and the Scottish Highlanders, among others. Most tribal rulers can raise a large minority of their POPs in defence, and the most effective can raise similar numbers on the offensive, but tribal POPs only give a small amount of income. Both nomadic and tribal armies are strongly inclined to settle in newly conquered areas, the former particularly. Settled POPs, which cover most of the map at the latter start dates, give a moderate amount of income, but only a fairly small fraction can be used for defensive wars, and less for offensive ones. Urban POPs, such as the inhabitants of Bagdad or York, give the highest incomes to their rulers, but only a few percent can be used for external conquest.

Urban POPs are very desirable to have due to their great wealth but are hard to keep intact. Provinces have a POP “cap” which, as the POPs in the province approach it in numerical size, their growth will decelerate. The cap is increased multiplicatively based on way of life and the size of the area controlled from it and hence it can draw resources from. In rare circumstances, the POP size will significantly succeed the cap, due to for instance an abnormally long period of peace without plague, abnormal amounts of wealth flowing in through trade or being the capital of a large area[3], in which case the extra population will split off to form a new POP[4]; an urban one. Urban pops are particularly vulnerable to disease, sacks and general shrinkage. Urban POPs are inclined to become republics in times where their liege’s control is weak, and in select cultures, they may be sold town charters to become republics to grant the ruler who sold it an immediate cash boost. In order to protect an urban POP from war, it may be a good idea to build city walls, which leads into the structures feature.

First, city walls prevent any enemy army which just moves into the province from damaging the POP. Instead, to access it, they must besiege the city. City walls are also unique in that they can be built around other structures, like castles, granting additional protection. The disadvantage to city walls? They, like all structures, require maintenance. Zero or insufficient maintenance will cause structures to gradually decay, losing defensive advantage at first very quickly but at ever slowing rates[5]. However, a half-decayed structure will be much cheaper to repair than building a structure from scratch.

There would be two non-defensive kinds of structures: palaces and temples. The former would be things like the Apostolic Palace or Palace of Westminster, while the latter would include Aachen Cathedral or the Al-Azhar Mosque. Like other structures, they would require maintenance, but Palaces would give more prestige the larger and better maintained they were, and Temples would give piety[6]. Note that theocrats would not live in temples, but castles or palaces.

[1] They have a closer resemblance to EU:Rome or MEIOU & Taxes 2.0 POPs

[2] Not to be confused with tribal government type, which are actually much closer to chiefdoms.

[3] This would be done with a formula something like T=B*C+C/x, where T is the new total the province’s POPs are geared to (collectively) grow towards, B is the base POP cap of the province, and C is the total caps of all the areas controlled (minus perhaps some sort of autonomy modifier like Crown Authority in CK2).

[4] Or POPs, if the province is religiously or culturally diverse

[5] For instance, not maintaining a castle for a decade with substantially reduce the defensive advantage, but a castle neglected for 50 years is not much worse than one neglected for 25

[6] Both should be subject to diminishing returns, as someone who owns 100 palaces is not twice as prestigious as one who owns 50. (Indeed, this should be a general principle as it would stop prestige becoming a bottomless pool for major emperors.)
 

Woifee

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Medieval euroe wasn’t known for its efficient population census and politics. Often they had almost no influence on the develoment of the population and didn’t know how many people they rule over. Therefore a pop mechanic wouldn’t fit into a medieval politics simulation.
 

fr-rein

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Population numbers didn't matter much in this period...
I love pop system from Vicky, but CK series aren't about population numbers. Thus, I disagree.

What I do think could be made more dynamic is number of building slots available which determines density and economics. It would be sensible to tie it to prosperity, techs and such. It would be a sufficient instead of pop system and besides building slots weren't touches practically since the release.
 

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what would it add to the game?

You can represent rebellions without a pop-system and there are too little stratas in CK to make it a viable game mechanic

Population numbers didn't matter much in this period...
I love pop system from Vicky, but CK series aren't about population numbers. Thus, I disagree.

What I do think could be made more dynamic is number of building slots available which determines density and economics. It would be sensible to tie it to prosperity, techs and such. It would be a sufficient instead of pop system and besides building slots weren't touches practically since the release.

https://imperator.paradoxwikis.com/Population

tl;dr 4 pop types (easy moddable and we can add more), every pop has a religion, culture and provide different things like manpower, tax income or research (read wiki for more info)

They are very simple and certainly not as detailed as Vic pops but that's why I can see them work in CK3. Historical population numbers won't really be a huge problem, you can have big cities like Constantinople have huge amount of pops and poor areas miniscule amount of them (balancing them won't be as hard as Vic style pops, I imagine), you can have religious/culture minorities in provinces. They would also be better at representing difference between civilized and tribal realms compared to CK2 "goverment types".

In an game focused on characters we don't need detailed population mechanic imho, but it's better to have something than nothing at all

POPs really wouldn't be very useful here, as the world revolved more around nobilities rather than general populace.

Additionally, that's what provincial religion represents: religion of low-level nobilities. Peasantries just served whoever was in charge.

And lets not get to technical aspects! The character system alone eats great amounts of system resources.

In my opinion, the culture/religion system is too arbitrary. I don't want exact population numbers, I want a percentage. Say, in the crusader states, instead of everybody becoming catholic and french, you have to import french catholic pops that, over time, will become the majority as shown in the pie chart. That's it. No fancy numbers or whatever. And, reading about the Imperator POPs, I think they'd do just fine for what I believe would be better for CK and howthings worked at the time AND now, too.
 

fr-rein

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And, reading about the Imperator POPs, I think they'd do just fine for what I believe would be better for CK and howthings worked at the time
No.
That means killing most of current system. No building slots (since those won't make as much sense now), different mechanics for cities/church's/castles, need to introduce classes, revamped economics (since, well, citizen growth should depend on something else than pure gold), etc.
You basically ask to scrap current game as it is now. Just nope, better make Victoria 3 instead.

I don't want exact population numbers, I want a percentage.
Again, tie it to building slots. Cities had citizens and adjusted areas, castles and churches had peasants attached. If you want percentage, ask for a rework of building slots system and attach cultures to holdings. 3 polish castles, 1 polish city and 1 Aztec city? 80% polish, 20% Aztec.
 

Zoomun

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I don't think we need a pop system but we do need something to prevent the entire population of Finland joining a single revolt in the year 800. Including the women and children.
 

Thure

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No.
That means killing most of current system. No building slots (since those won't make as much sense now), different mechanics for cities/church's/castles, need to introduce classes, revamped economics (since, well, citizen growth should depend on something else than pure gold), etc.
You basically ask to scrap current game as it is now. Just nope, better make Victoria 3 instead.

What does the Imperator POP system has to do with numbers of buildings? They can easily add the POP system in CK3 and keep many buildings. There is no connection like this.