Pop/Species Growth Ratio Formula - It needs adjusting, badly.

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Riftwalker

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But that is precisely part of the problem: The Krogan in Mass Effect were so abundant because they had a ridicoulous high birthrate.

Under the current system, even one single pop of slow breeders will take over half you your empire, since instead of having growth determined by sensible factors (brithrate, habitability, Rights, etc.) we get this nonsensical mandate of species parity , which is essentially enforced by mandatory population controls for the majority species until parity has been reached.

um... no, not exactly.

they were given planets that no other species could use(in exchange for being used as shock troops to attack Rachnii planets that were inhospitable to the other alliance races at the time), which along with their high birth rate caused them to be a problem. it's because of their resiliency that they became a problem. they grew on planets with low habitability of the alliance races, but in their space, taking them over, then they demanded more planets, which caused the war.

beyond that, slow breeders are weighted against as well. it's that high expressed races will decline that causes the shift. slow brreders won;t reach parity until after maybe hundreds of years of inclusion.

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this is my demographics. I'm a Fanatic xenophile, i have migration treaties with pretty much teh entire galaxy, the bright blue in the right, is my primary race, taking 13% of my population, the next highest, the green-grey, are all robots. sitting at 19%(i have 4 separate kinds).

the blues in between are Humans and Chimm, my first encounters(the sliver in between is a race the humans had in their empire), they collectively hold 10% not even beating my primary race by a close margin. After that are various other races i've collected since then, but most of them are Cross breeds. I have 53 Species groups(i have no idea how many subspecies i have, too many) (due to crossbreeding, probably 10 or so original species) and yet none of them have come close to overtaking my primary species... it's 2409.

so this is probably worst case scenario...
 
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KonradKurze202

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When I first saw someone say this I thought they were exaggerating, but I wanted to do an egalitarian, xenophile, psychic ascension run. Everything's going well for the first 50ish years, I have a Fanatic Pacifist advanced start on one border (free influence since he can't declare war) and some other fun empires around. I befriend a megacorp neighbor we get all the treaties (except research because that wouldn't benefit me at all), I was sitting at around 60-70 pops, all of them my species. 100 years later I am at ~600ish pops and my primary species is at 90, the majority of those came from colonizing new worlds using them. So after I transcend I've got less than 20% of my population actually ascending, all because I had a migration treaty with ONE empire. That empire probably had treaties with other empires (it was a Megacorp afterall), but even so my primary species basically stopped growing all together, at least in my empire. When I looked at the galaxy species tab I discovered there were 130 members of my species in other empires. So by signing one migration treaty I basically ended all pop growth of my primary species in my empire and somehow transferred it all out into other empires.

I think the problem is the current species growth formula is basically just:
What species is most underrepresented in your empire? Lets grow that one on every world!

I think a far better formula would be something along the lines of:
If Species has no representation = 0.33
If Species is underrepresented
Weight = current species representation / (1 - (ideal representation - current representation))
If species if over or equal represented
Weight = Ideal species representation + 0.25 * (current representation - ideal representation)
Where ideal representation is equal representation modified by habitability (so 3 species, with 80%, 80%, and 65% habitabilities will have an ideal rep of 35.56%, 35.56%, & 28.88%).

Example:
On planet Alpha species A currently has 70% of the population (7 pops) and species B has 30% (3 pops). Both species have the same climate preference and so the ideal ratio is 50:50.
Species A has weight = 0.5 + 0.25 * (0.7 - 0.5) = .55
Because the species is over represented it gets no bonus weight, but there is no penalty for over representation.
Species B has weight = 0.3 / (1 - (0.5 - 0.3)) = .375

So species B has a boost to its chance for being under represented, but still has a lower chance than the primary species.

So lets look at how the weight changes over the next few pops. Assume the next pop is species A.
Now we have A with 8 pops and B with 3.
Weight A = 0.5 + 0.25 (.7272 - .5) = .5568
Weight B = .2727 * (1 - (0.5 - 0.2727)) = .353
Species B gets a bit less likely as it becomes more of a minority (as it should be), but the decrease is mitigated by the increase in the delta between ideal and current representation.

Lets assume the next pop goes to B, so A = 8, B = 4
Weight A = 0.5 + 0.25 ( 0.66-0.5) = .54
Weight B = 0.33 / (1 - (0.5 - 0.33)) = 0.398
B's weight now goes up while A's remains

One thing this will do is ensure core worlds remain predominantly their own species, while allowing colonies that are developed after migration treaties are signed to be truly multicultural. There is no factor for empire wide representation (which is just ridiculous in general, pops growing on planets should be influenced by whats on the planet, not by whats in your entire empire) so that's a plus.
A simple way to include habitability into this equation is to just multiply the weight by the habitability (limit of x 1, habitability over 100% shouldn't contribute extra).

I think this would far better represent actual pop demographic while still allowing minorities to eventually grow on developed planets (it will just take quite a while).
 

Arthrodira

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Agreed. This is a big problem. One fix would be to bring back the old migration system. Declining should only represent dieing (not emigrating). Growing should only represent births, not immigration. Migrant pops should just spear in any number as they migrate.
 

Sunbro BigBoss

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Another thing I have noticed is that immigration seems to be capped? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but even if I have 10 overpopulated planets, a brand new and built up ecumenopolis 'only' draws 5 base growth from incoming pops.
 

AmpsterMan

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If we are going by the simple, easy to implement changes, make it so pops that are not of the preferred hydro table be almost zero chance, and then those of correct hydro, but wrong type have a reduced chance to immigrate.

I really dislike that I have savanna pops in my ocean planet as humanity.
 

Arthrodira

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If we are going by the simple, easy to implement changes, make it so pops that are not of the preferred hydro table be almost zero chance, and then those of correct hydro, but wrong type have a reduced chance to immigrate.

I really dislike that I have savanna pops in my ocean planet as humanity.

Agreed. I spent an absurd amount of time and energy credits relocating pops early game to the correct climate preference because pops kept showing up everywhere. There should be a 0% chance of pops with 30% habitability growing when another pop (the primary species) has 80% habitability on said planet. This is the equalization growth formula at its most egregious.

I kept getting alpine pop growth on my ocean worlds when the primary species was tropical.
 

Person012345

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This discussion is funny. When population change was reaveled and it said there will be only one pop growing at the time. I was pretty sure it's going to be recipe for catastrophe. Why somone would hardcode such assumption? Why not have all species growing separately (and migrtion separated from that?) Was it because ux? What we have now is mess that is going to be discussed, tweaked and work on till Kingdom come. But why? We are never going to know.
That's not even the inherent problem here. It WAS clear, I think to most people, that giving significant weight to minorities didn't make sense and was a bad idea. I brought up potential issues myself in the thread. One-at-a-time can work just fine if the chances are weighted right. It's sub-optimal for sure, but also simpler.
 

Avil

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Yeah. Another weird thing happens when your planet is overpopulated (your home planets, with majority of primary species), your primary species start declining. And when I say "declining" I mean they get removed from your empire, even though you have plenty of planets ready for moving in, including gaya worlds, still empty resort world and bottomless city-world. I tried to be egalitarian in 2.2 once. Didn't like it. Never shacked hands with egalitarian faction and empires since then.

- ratio must be planet based, not empire wide;
- minority on a planet should stay minority (at least it should take awhile when they start to push out the majority). They can compete for equal quantity in new colonies;
- habitability and growth rate should be included in the ratio. 20% guys have the same quantity as my primary species with 100%? Really?
 

Arutar

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It blows my mind that anyone thought this was a good idea. It would take one test run to realize that something's way off.

Yes, apart from the botched implementation, the whole idea was bad from the start the more I think about it.

The Devs reasoning according to the Dev blog was apparently that it would be "boring" to have a realistic growth model, since small minorities would likely remain small minorities in the empire (nonwithstanding conquests, migration treaties or fast breeders, etc.).

But the opposite is true: In may opinion it is way cooler to have this one planet with a small enclave of a minority species which fled the nearby purifier empire, than having the same species becoming 50% of my empires population within a few decades (and then rinse and repeat for any future immigrated species). Species can no longer tell a "unique story" since they all get normalized by the current system.

This immersion breaking, boring "normalization" of species also robs A.I. empires a lot of their flavor, since their population (and leaders) get normalized as well though migration. Im my last game, for example, three different empires had a human leader, since the UNE had migration treaties with all of them.
 
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Elordis

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that's asuming that the hamsters keep shipping away the extra hamster they produce.

If they don't, then it will follow the path of:
9/10 :> new hamster => 10/11 :> new hamster => 11/12 new hamster

and so on and so on, reducing the chance for the non-hamster with every hamster produced.

A single pop increase inspite of several different species is never going to work proper.
That's easily fixed by having MDRR scheduling on pop growth. Meaning, that with each grown pop weight of that species is reduced.
 

Mikhail_Mengsk

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I think it's because the game should just ditck the whole "POP unit" system. For growth as well as jobs.

Just have raw numbers and %s.

I'll explain:

Planet Earth has a total of 5billion individuals: 2,5b humans, 1,5b martians, 1b venusians. It's an abstraction, of course; let's say it's considered all "working" population or whatnot. Every race has a growth factor, and every month the numbers are updated; unless a pop has negative growth, they will grow. Jobs restrictions aside, jobs are assigned taking into account racial bonus/malus. If there aren't enough jobs, unemployement occurs.

Jobs restrictions that should be implemented: like, this race only does farming jobs, this one artisans, etc. In the race tab you should be ablo to enable or disable races to compete for certain jobs. Fanatic Xenophile? Well, you can't choose, but your pops gets a generic bonus to represent better integration or whatever. The game considers the various bonus/malus for every "taken" job and shows the total output.


Welp, I'm terrible at explaining things.
 

AlazkanAssassin

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Suggestion: every species that can grow on or emigrate to a planet should produce its own flavor of pop growth points. These points are added to a running planetary talley for each (sub)species. When the sum of all of these tallys equals 100 ( a full pop that is) then the species of the new pop is selected using the current accumulated pop scores as the odds for each. Once a pop is selected, that (sub)species growth point tally is reduced by 100, negative values allowed to be stored!
In this way pops will grow, on average, according to their growth rates, but the total pop growth will happen in a smooth way.
 

Arutar

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I think it's because the game should just ditck the whole "POP unit" system. For growth as well as jobs.
Just have raw numbers and %s.

But that wouldn't change a thing with respect to the question at hand. We need significantly different weights with respect to how growth is calculated, not necessarily how it is displayed.

Or to put in in another way: Your system also uses "POP units", only that your "POP unit" each equals a single person (i.e. 2,5b "units "of humans) and does not stand for millions of individuals each (like it does in game now)
 
Last edited:

Mikhail_Mengsk

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But that wouldn't change a thing with respect to the question at hand. We need significantly different weights with respect to how growth is calculated, not necessarily how it is displayed.

Or to put in in another way: Your system also uses "POP units", only that your "POP unit" equals a singe person (i.e. 2,5b humans) and does not stand for millions of individuals each.

Currently, only one POP grows.

New system, EVERY pop grows. If the current (bad) weighting still leads 500k POP to grow more than others, others are still growing from higher numbers. Example: 500k Jovian pop will grow 10% a month, 2,5b humans growing 1% a month. Next month, Humans are 2,525b, Jovians are 550k. Yeah, Jovians theoretically could reach or surpass humanity... in how many centuries? Because humans are still growing too, and with their enormous starting numbers they are well ahead and even a minimum growth rate makes a BIG difference in numbers.
 

EvilTom

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Did people prefer the initial way this was done with multiple species growing at the same time? Or did that give too great a benefit to multi-species empires?

Could this just be (at least temporarily) changed to just allow all pops grow, but with a modifier for happiness, living conditions and habitability? This would get rid of most people's worries about the weird choices for who is to grow and goes to a system which we've had previously, which wasn't quite so bad.

I don't know what the solution is, but all I know is that if birthrate > deathrate then population increases at that rate of difference. Also, this games method of representing population as abstract pops limits the representation of population, but simplifies it in a nice way which is beneficial overall.

Some possible partially mitigating solutions could include:
- Including big increases in longevity (eg changing genes, living standards, in the deathrate (this would be temporary), which should increase population increases for a while.
- Non-nasty ways of altering birthrates on species or whole population basis (may annoy other populations if it's unfair). eg: incentives, disincentives, contraceptives.
- More nasty ways of altering birthrates on species, eg: banning/restricting birthrates, neutering, forced contraceptives. These could be overt to covert (I'm thinking of chemicals in the water vs the anti-Krogen style chemical sterilization of most of the population - I can imagine this being a weapon of war (again covertly or overtly)).
 

Warchild421

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If we are going by the simple, easy to implement changes, make it so pops that are not of the preferred hydro table be almost zero chance, and then those of correct hydro, but wrong type have a reduced chance to immigrate.

I really dislike that I have savanna pops in my ocean planet as humanity.

The wrong hab type shouldn't mean zero chance, but it should be one of the biggest factors. No matter what you try to do, some idiots will try to live where they shouldn't. But it should not be very many