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Bullfrog

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Capital ship construction was a major political move as well as a great expenditure during the mid to late 1930s. Often national pride and propaganda, as well as international relations, were highly influenced by the building and commissioning of a major warship.

In the 1940's this continued though there was less press (and obviously less politics) involved. However, since the construction of a major ship is inherently a public issue, they were often (especially in the 30s) used as bargaining chips. I see a correlation between major ship construction and diplomacy and politics.

I would think that the design, construction and commission of a ship could be somehow influential to the local threat levels, the relations and the military preparedness of neighboring countries, or countries that had naval races going on in the late 30s. Obviously the argument can be made that the 8 US, 5 UK, 3 Italian, 2 German and 2 Japanese battleships commissioned during the war were less than useful in combat and the outcome of the war, even at sea. However, they were still built as a political device (fleet in being) and thus I feel in HoI 3 there could be national missions or decisions that involved the major nations in a naval race of sorts, at least with certain partners.

For instance, Japan vs the US. France vs Germany/Italy. There are more examples. Assume that is implemented. I am playing france, and I want larger warships to counter the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which came of the line in Jan. 39 and May 38, respectively. So in order to even the odds, a national mission is to build a comparable ship. If I do not, I may suffer threat increase, erosion of political support, dissent, etc. In this way the massive ship building projects of the late 1930s would be added into the game, as well as their political causation and consequences. Remember that all the battleships made in WW2 were ordered when the builder nation was at peace.

As an aside, the buildtimes for ships should be on a slider, with limited manipulation allowed by the player. For example, if I have little IC but a lot of time, like 1938 Japan, I can make the Yamato and Musashi together by decreasing their IC cost/day by extending their buildtimes. Inversely I could make the Iowa class BBs as the US in 2 years by maxing IC/day cost, thus decreasing the buildtime. It would always be an equal total of IC cost. (of course limited to a certain degree, buildtime no shorter than 2 years, not longer than 5).

Comments?
 

unmerged(45464)

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Sounds good, I really like the limited slider. Although maybe there should be a small penalty because putting in 10 % more IC doesn't result in 10 % faster construction. A soup doesn't boil faster because there are 500 cooks watching over it. You have to remember the law of diminishing returns.
 

nwinther

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Sounds good, I really like the limited slider. Although maybe there should be a small penalty because putting in 10 % more IC doesn't result in 10 % faster construction. A soup doesn't boil faster because there are 500 cooks watching over it. You have to remember the law of diminishing returns.

It will if you add wattage. A better analogy would be, that your roast won't get cooked if you use a flamethrower - only burnt.:p
 

Wraith11B

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I've always thought that the Washington Naval Treaty was never properly modelled in HOI... well, modelled at all, really. The treaty envisioned a GWT distribution of 5/5/3/1.75/1.75 between the UK/US/Japan/France/Italy respectively. While its true that the treaty ended in effectiveness in 1936, however, the US and UK went along with it right up to 1939 or so.

I guess that its better included in the "Armaggeddon" mod, or a 1934 scenario.
 

TheLand

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I don't think that a special slider for "capital ship building intensity" will be included.

I do hope though that we'll get some National Decisions about whether to be in or out of the London Naval Treaty.

And while I assume the 'time' component of capital ship building will be roughly the same as in HOI2, I would like to see this modded upwards (with corresponding decrease in IC cost) to reflect the time it really took to build a battleship.
 

Bullfrog

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I don't think that a special slider for "capital ship building intensity" will be included.

I do hope though that we'll get some National Decisions about whether to be in or out of the London Naval Treaty.

And while I assume the 'time' component of capital ship building will be roughly the same as in HOI2, I would like to see this modded upwards (with corresponding decrease in IC cost) to reflect the time it really took to build a battleship.

yeah this was the point...except an addition to the Washington treaty would be whether or not to respond to a potential enemy's shipbuilding program with one of your own...

The ship building did take more time than HoI2 represents, and I would also like to see it increased, with a corresponding decrease in IC/day. That was the reason for the slider, however I also suggested it because some nations built their ships faster than others. A slider could also be a simulation of shipbuilding capacity, relatively unchangeable by the player except in small increments and at high cost.
 

unmerged(60761)

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Sep 11, 2006
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I think that the buildtime for a Ship (Divisions and Air Squadrons too) is good in HOI2, so must be the same in HOI3. Maybe the repair time for ships could be changed, determined by the research system.
 

unmerged(56754)

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Britain built 6 battleships in the timespan. :p

But yes, I totally agree with what your saying, capital ships should mean something, though loosing one or something, should not cuase massive revolts or industry problems, there should actually be a reason for me, as the Uk or whatever, to build these ships, even if only for political reasons.
 

Bullfrog

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I think that the buildtime for a Ship (Divisions and Air Squadrons too) is good in HOI2, so must be the same in HOI3. Maybe the repair time for ships could be changed, determined by the research system.

All the buildtimes for non US ships in HoI2 are extremely short. Even in the middle of the war it took other nations much longer to build a smaller ship like a DD or SS. For instance the average type VIIc submarine took a German shipyard 1 year to build. In HoI2 it takes 5 months without modifiers, with full hawk lobby and techs it can take less than 4 months. The average German destroyer built during wartime took about a year and a half, where in HoI2 it can take as little as 3 months. With the massive 20% off buildtime bonus for hawk lobby, a major ship like a BC, CV or BB can be completed months earlier, when their buildtime is only 2 years or less. Thus ships that should take 3 years actually only take 1.5.
The buildtimes seem to be based on the US at full production, but apply to all nations. This is why a slider determining capacity would be great.
 
Sep 7, 2004
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All the buildtimes for non US ships in HoI2 are extremely short. Even in the middle of the war it took other nations much longer to build a smaller ship like a DD or SS. For instance the average type VIIc submarine took a German shipyard 1 year to build. In HoI2 it takes 5 months without modifiers, with full hawk lobby and techs it can take less than 4 months. The average German destroyer built during wartime took about a year and a half, where in HoI2 it can take as little as 3 months. With the massive 20% off buildtime bonus for hawk lobby, a major ship like a BC, CV or BB can be completed months earlier, when their buildtime is only 2 years or less. Thus ships that should take 3 years actually only take 1.5.
The buildtimes seem to be based on the US at full production, but apply to all nations. This is why a slider determining capacity would be great.

Agreed--build times for ships are too short in HOI2. The full hawk bonus + ship assembly line tech is way overpowered.

I do like the idea of assembly-line techs so any nation that's willing to invest enough can get a good build-time bonus, if not as good as US historically.

It's also worth noting that ships could be built much faster pre-war than during the war, when dockyards got busy with repairs etc. Check out build times for (especially big) UK warships--if they weren't comlpete by late '40/early '41, the build time started to drag on much longer due to dockyard bottlenecks etc etc,
 

TheLand

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It's also worth noting that ships could be built much faster pre-war than during the war, when dockyards got busy with repairs etc. Check out build times for (especially big) UK warships--if they weren't comlpete by late '40/early '41, the build time started to drag on much longer due to dockyard bottlenecks etc etc,

Of course those bottlenecks are in part a matter of choice - resources going to aircraft construction or minor craft instead - this can perhaps be represented by the ships falling to the bottom of the build queue, into the red bit :)

Here are some WWII battleship build time figures. I have picked the ships which were generally quickest for their class or nation, perhaps indicating they had higher priority for materials (though the USA managed at least one quicker than these...)

Obviously there are ships of different sizes described. Yamato in particular is probably a special case.

Code:
	     Nation	Laid down	Launch	Commission	Days to Launch	Days to Commission
King George V	UK	02/01/1937	21/02/1939	11/02/1940	780	1135
Vanguard	UK	02/10/1941	30/11/1944	25/04/1946	1155	1666
South Dakota	USA	05/07/1939	07/06/1941	20/03/1942	703	989
Iowa      	USA	27/06/1940	27/08/1942	22/02/1943	791	970
North Carolina	USA	27/10/1937	13/06/1940	09/04/1941	960	1260
Bismarck	Germany	01/07/1936	14/02/1939	24/08/1940	958	1515
Gneisenau	Germany	01/03/1935	08/12/1936	21/05/1938	648	1177
Yamato   	Japan	04/11/1937	08/08/1940	16/12/1941	1008	1503
Roma      	Italy	18/09/1938	06/09/1940	14/06/1942	719	1365
Jean Bart	France	12/12/1936	06/03/1940	01/12/1940	1180	1450
						
average days to commission 1303
average for Europe 1385
average for USA 1073
 

Bullfrog

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I would say that most ships were built faster during the war when compared to pre-war...
 

zeekater

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Here are some WWII battleship build time figures. I have picked the ships which were generally quickest for their class or nation, perhaps indicating they had higher priority for materials (though the USA managed at least one quicker than these...)

Obviously there are ships of different sizes described. Yamato in particular is probably a special case.

Code:
	     Nation	Laid down	Launch	Commission	Days to Launch	Days to Commission
King George V	UK	02/01/1937	21/02/1939	11/02/1940	780	1135
Vanguard	UK	02/10/1941	30/11/1944	25/04/1946	1155	1666
South Dakota	USA	05/07/1939	07/06/1941	20/03/1942	703	989
Iowa      	USA	27/06/1940	27/08/1942	22/02/1943	791	970
North Carolina	USA	27/10/1937	13/06/1940	09/04/1941	960	1260
Bismarck	Germany	01/07/1936	14/02/1939	24/08/1940	958	1515
Gneisenau	Germany	01/03/1935	08/12/1936	21/05/1938	648	1177
Yamato   	Japan	04/11/1937	08/08/1940	16/12/1941	1008	1503
Roma      	Italy	18/09/1938	06/09/1940	14/06/1942	719	1365
Jean Bart	France	12/12/1936	06/03/1940	01/12/1940	1180	1450
						
average days to commission 1303
average for Europe 1385
average for USA 1073

In Hoi2DD a battleship took 730 days to finish, decreased by 20 days with the ship assembly line tech...
 

Bullfrog

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In Hoi2DD a battleship took 730 days to finish, decreased by 20 days with the ship assembly line tech...

only after being reduced to 584 days due to full hawk lobby, which is plain ridiculous. No battleship was ever made that fast. I doubt even a cruiser could be made so quickly. Even a damn light cruiser.
 
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I'd suggest roughly--

40 months for a BB/BC/CV
32 months for a CA/CL/CVL
24 months for a DD/SS

--with tech et al allowing for a max 25% reduction in the above.
 

Bullfrog

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I'd suggest roughly--

40 months for a BB/BC/CV
32 months for a CA/CL/CVL
24 months for a DD/SS

--with tech et al allowing for a max 25% reduction in the above.

See this is why the slider thing would work so well. It would/could be based on tech practicality, shipbuilding capacity, leadership, whatever fits, etc.

Therefore the historical shipbuilding capacity could be simulated, which was highly variable among even the top naval powers.
 
Sep 7, 2004
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Agreed. I was looking over a history of RN shipbuilding during the war and the author commented how US build times were faster (sometimes much faster) but this speed required 2.5x the man-hours and 2.5x the cost. Your slider idea could simulate this very well.
 

Bullfrog

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Agreed. I was looking over a history of RN shipbuilding during the war and the author commented how US build times were faster (sometimes much faster) but this speed required 2.5x the man-hours and 2.5x the cost. Your slider idea could simulate this very well.

Is this available online or is it a book?

As far as the political thing, would it be possible to have a "naval race" in HoI3? Obviously the game could simulate one with insight into the enemy production via intelligence, but I would love to see national missions for building ships. Not required to win the game, but to keep the naval heavy nations from becoming too powerful without any action on the part of the player nation.

This would also be dynamic, because if the production of large ships halted in a potential enemy's nation, the opposition to building more ships in your nation would increase. Also this would "urge" the AI to build BBs and CAs, which for some nations in HOI2 never happened. For example the USA in HoI2 almost never built its historical 10 modern battleships...