Political Spectrum Revised

[dermeister]

Will the neo-liberals stop at nothing to tarnish the reputation of socialism?

1. I follow Austrian economics, most neoliberals are Monetarists (macroeconomic socialists).
2. Socialism needs no help in the tarnish department, it achieves as much when left to it's own devices.

Calling nazism socialism because of the decifit spending system in the 30's (Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because they were gearing for a war), is simply retarded. By the same logic you could call Czarist Russia "socialist", because the state being the only buyer of arms and uniforms could control their relative prices.

Calling National Socialism Socialism is warranted by the fact that they were socialist. In terms of economics, Germany was far to the left of the left-most European countries you can think of today.

Who else is socialist by this meter? WWII Japan, definatetly. WWII UK, also. Pretty much every country in a long war is socialist by that definition. Price control, decifit spending and state control over strategically important industries doesn't equal socialism, it equals a state of war (Or in fascist countries preparation for it).

Price fixing, bank-nationalizing, wage-fixing, export-controlling, insurance-scheme peddling, military drafting, and all other controls only hide the price of war. You don't need them to fight a war, or to fund it.

Socialism just means state control of economics to some degree or another. The philosophy that is used to justify this is usually collectivist/altruist/utilitarian.

Thus, countries can go from highly socialist, to moderately socialist, to barely socialist, or even not socialist at all.

But no matter the degree of socialism, the justification for it is based in common principles.

 

[Arilou]

Calling National Socialism Socialism is warranted by the fact that they were socialist. In terms of economics, Germany was far to the left of the left-most European countries you can think of today.

Socialism doesen't mean government control, it means government ownership. A fine difference, but an important one. It is possible to have government control over the economy (a planned economy) and still retain a capitalist ownership structure. It is also at least theoretically possible to have a socialist market-economy (government-owned corporations competing with each other)

Price fixing, bank-nationalizing, wage-fixing, export-controlling, insurance-scheme peddling, military drafting, and all other controls only hide the price of war. You don't need them to fight a war, or to fund it.

Actually, yeah, you kind of do. At least at the time.

 

[GeneralHannibal]

I think the point about fascism is that (quite unlike socialism) economics weren't really all that important in the fascist vision of the world. It was never the centre of the ideology in the way it is for most socialists and liberals. (incidentally I'd argue that this is precisely what makes it a right-wing ideology, although that hinges on a rather nonstandard definition of "left" and "right"...) In that way it is more closely tied to conservatism.

What matters to the fascists were national unity/strength and to some degree social cohesion, how that was brought about was really not that important (and tended to be hand-waved a lot) they were trying to smooth over the edges of the capitalist system in order to promote the rest of their agenda, but the fascist radical transformation was (unlike the socialist one) not supposed to be a radical reconstruction of the economic structures but a radical reconstruction of the physical and moral character of the nation.

This gets it spot-on - European right-wingers just didn't care about the economy in the same way. They therefore tended to be more flexible, instituting control measures sometimes but allowing relative freedom other times.

 

[unmerged(52491)]

This is a WW II game. It is not a tool to validate your own ideology and historical perception. Between 1936 and 1945 the differences between communism, nazism and fascism were clearly defined. Nazis and fascists were rabidly anti-socialist & nationalist and Soviets were rabidly anti-capitalist (which for them included Nazi Germany) & internationalist. Communists saw history in terms of materialistic class struggle, fascists saw it in terms of struggle of nations, races & ideas. What more ideologic opposition do you want?

I would go on how socialism defined as "big government" is purely a modern American misconception and definition of socialism has changed through the decades but really it is irrelevant. Because political spectrum in HOI series is only used as a diplomatic tool to reflect the ideologic adversities of the period and it does that job adequately. This game is not an economic and social simulator. It's very simple in those aspects. Why bother?

 

[Mr. Domino]

I always find these arguments interesting, but often unsatisfying. Too often it seems to me to we treat Fascism like some Platonic Idea. A great unified intellectual theory. In reality it was a hodgepodge ideology espoused by two neurotic and idiosyncratic dictators IMO.

In reality there were, what, two fascist nations that existed for one or two decades (Italy and Nazi germany.) Fascism, as traditionally defined, was then very quickly relegated to the dustbin of history by the way of its defeat.

This is not a overly large representative sample. Whats worse for the purpose of having a grand intellectual debate about how "fascism is Y", fascism does not seem to me to be a very rich intellectual movement, with many luminaries produced dense intellectual tomes. Its true the democratic and communist opponents of fascism definitely did a lot of scholarship on it. But in terms for how the fascist saw themselves it seems to me you really have to look at Mein Kampf or Mussolini's speeches.

The question then becomes how this is a real, separate ideology from hitlerism or mussolini-ism. Take one fairly simpe example: does fascism equal anti-semitism or biological racism? Must people would reflexively say yes. But Mussolini seemed to not be anti-semitic or play up a biological superior Italian race. Does that mean fascism does not equal antisemtism, or that Mussolin was an idosyncratic and "imperfect" fascist? Maybe we could turn that on its head: German fascism played up biological racism and anti-semitism due to idiosyncratic factors in Germany in 1930s and Hitlers own neurosis, not due to fact that fascism somehow intellectually requires anti-semitism.

And so we go. Mussolini, we are told, was once (and continued to be?) a socialist. Okay. But is that an personal quirk, or an intellecutal hallmark? Some have argued that nazis were anti-religous, "pagan" and anti-catholic. If Mussolini had better relations with the Vatican, what, if anything does that prove about the nebulous idea called "Fascism" and its relationship to organized religion?

 

[Wraith11B]

I'd say that there were several other fascist countries... especially in the Middle East. Saddam Hussein was driven in large part by his interpretation of Nazi Germany, not to mention Nasser (Egypt) or Assad (Syria) who were also big on similar ideas, because that's what the Soviets pushed (along with the Nazi propaganda regarding the Jews). Even Hussein's 'political party' was a copy of Syria's.

 

[unmerged(110051)]

As a political ideology Fascism is a joke. There has never been, nor will there ever be, fascism without genocide and concentration camps.

Fascim does not have anything to do with concentration camps and genocide, that´s Nazism. Fascism in Italy or Spain did not had those genocide and racial issues. Indeed Franco´s security guard were mainly Moroccans.

Second, if Fascism is a joke, so does is Communism, change concentration camp for Stalin´s gulag or Mao´s cultural revolution. And genocide for class murder or "re-education".

In fact communism and real socialism have been a much more evil doctrine in the world, Mao and Stalin murder numbers overpass those of Hitler. Hitler´s and lennin´s number are similar. And in % terms pol pot has been the worst !!

To be honest, economically fascism is not so far away of what Obama wants to do now. Big government, big expenditure, some sort of protectionism for national security reasons and favors to the people loyal to the "regime". So now he is even charging against lobbyist, so the only one who have access to government officials are the Dems contributors.

Fascism policies works well in the short run and creates an illusion , but very poorly in the long run because of the protectionism that´s inherent to it. Simple as it is. The best to understand this is to read Popper and the deffinition of closed vs open societies

 

[unmerged(110051)]

They were bourgeois socialists, pretty much. Their actual economy in practice is known as state capitalism. Don't forget Göbbels, Strasser and Röhm represented the left-wing, more anti-capitalist side of the Nazis but Göbbels was forced to be totally loyal to Hitler while Strasser and Röhm were killed.

Funny enough, state capitalism is the description of today´s economic policies of one of the few remaining communism countries in the world; China

 

[unmerged(110051)]

This is a WW II game. It is not a tool to validate your own ideology and historical perception. Between 1936 and 1945 the differences between communism, nazism and fascism were clearly defined. Nazis and fascists were rabidly anti-socialist & nationalist and Soviets were rabidly anti-capitalist (which for them included Nazi Germany) & internationalist. Communists saw history in terms of materialistic class struggle, fascists saw it in terms of struggle of nations, races & ideas. What more ideologic opposition do you want?

I would go on how socialism defined as "big government" is purely a modern American misconception and definition of socialism has changed through the decades but really it is irrelevant. Because political spectrum in HOI series is only used as a diplomatic tool to reflect the ideologic adversities of the period and it does that job adequately. This game is not an economic and social simulator. It's very simple in those aspects. Why bother?

The Italian fascism and the Spanish "Falange", were very much socialist. Just a curious data, you would have heard about the "Blaue Division", the divison that Franco sent to fight on the Eastern Front, was called "blue" because of the original uniform, the blue shirt of the Falange that came from the "Blue collar", the working clothes.

Why bother about economic and ideological aspects?, because its at the core of the game and makes it much more interesting. Indeed I would like to see more complexity on it

 

[unmerged(110051)]

Take one fairly simpe example: does fascism equal anti-semitism or biological racism? Must people would reflexively say yes. But Mussolini seemed to not be anti-semitic or play up a biological superior Italian race. Does that mean fascism does not equal antisemtism, or that Mussolin was an idosyncratic and "imperfect" fascist? Maybe we could turn that on its head: German fascism played up biological racism and anti-semitism due to idiosyncratic factors in Germany in 1930s and Hitlers own neurosis, not due to fact that fascism somehow intellectually requires anti-semitism.

And so we go. Mussolini, we are told, was once (and continued to be?) a socialist. Okay. But is that an personal quirk, or an intellecutal hallmark? Some have argued that nazis were anti-religous, "pagan" and anti-catholic. If Mussolini had better relations with the Vatican, what, if anything does that prove about the nebulous idea called "Fascism" and its relationship to organized religion?

The roots of the Antisemitism came basically for being socialist, as jews were the utmost representation of liberalism and capitalism, and therefore were hated by "socialists".

And yes, nazis were pagan, but fascism in Italy and Spain was highly religious. in fact in Spain was called "National Catholicism" and one of the main issues to fight communism in the Eastern Front was due to the atheist component, among others.

I agree with you there is a huge misconception, even today, about all this things, as allied propaganda from the war put some marks on it.

 

[Mrdie]

The Italian fascism and the Spanish "Falange", were very much socialist.

No, fascism was not socialism. Nazism claimed socialism, but not the Marxist kind. Fascists had National Syndicalism which, as I've been saying, advocated a national society. However, National Syndicalists soon became annoyed with the Fascists (who were "neither capitalist nor socialist" and didn't like independent unions). The Nazis were divided between left-wing (who ideally wanted to totally replace capitalism with something else) and the right-wing (who wanted to be more like Fascist Italy, corporatism and such). The left-wing got purged, the right-wing was led by Hitler.

This thread should basically be in the history forum at this point.

 

[Seething Clay]

These debates are always going to pretty fruitless if they prescribe a system for representing political philosophy ingame. All I can suggest is that ideology be made easily moddable to have the variety and dynamic the player desires. That would satisfy all who deserve to be satisfied. The portrayal is always going to reflect SOMEONE'S ideas (it will be the creators'), and it doesn't make sense to say it should reflect noone's- be realistic, there is no agreement on what the most basic elements of political thought like freedom, equality, democracy actually mean.

That way we can have a 'Marxist portrayal' mod for the sensible Paradoxian and I don't know a 'Laissez-fairist portrayal' mod for the neo-liberal bourgeois pawns that infect the net with their nonsense ideologies and trolling...

 

[unmerged(52491)]

The Italian fascism and the Spanish "Falange", were very much socialist. Just a curious data, you would have heard about the "Blaue Division", the divison that Franco sent to fight on the Eastern Front, was called "blue" because of the original uniform, the blue shirt of the Falange that came from the "Blue collar", the working clothes.

Why bother about economic and ideological aspects?, because its at the core of the game and makes it much more interesting. Indeed I would like to see more complexity on it

This actually strengthens my point: Fascist Spain(which was also anti-socialist, anti-communist, anti-anarchist... anti-left actually) sent volunteers to Nazi Germany who were at war with a communist country. You won't find same level of cooperation between communists and nazis; instead you will find mutual hatred. This is what matters in HOI. Which countries found themselves closer to others on ideological grounds? It's more about diplomacy and polarization. Whether fascists fashioned themselves as champions of worker class is irrelevant to the subject. Political spectrum should be viewed as a purely diplomatic info.

And no, economic and ideologic aspects are not at the core of this game. The core of the game is warfare, logistics, military strategy and tactics. I think you would find Victoria much closer to what you want out of this game.

 

[jamesmcm]

1. I follow Austrian economics, most neoliberals are Monetarists (macroeconomic socialists).
2. Socialism needs no help in the tarnish department, it achieves as much when left to it's own devices....

OFFTOPIC - take your political rants elsewhere.

 

[King]

Ok here we go from the top. We use Left/Right for game play purposes not out of any statement about poltical science. Communism and Fascism set on the extreme fringes because they are ideologically opposed to each other and no other reason. As Fascism finds its allies on the right and Communism on the left we set Fascism to extreme right and Communism to extreme left. This model does exactly what we want them to.

 

[unmerged(110051)]

This actually strengthens my point: Fascist Spain(which was also anti-socialist, anti-communist, anti-anarchist... anti-left actually) sent volunteers to Nazi Germany who were at war with a communist country. You won't find same level of cooperation between communists and nazis; instead you will find mutual hatred. This is what matters in HOI. Which countries found themselves closer to others on ideological grounds? It's more about diplomacy and polarization. Whether fascists fashioned themselves as champions of worker class is irrelevant to the subject. Political spectrum should be viewed as a purely diplomatic info.

And no, economic and ideologic aspects are not at the core of this game. The core of the game is warfare, logistics, military strategy and tactics. I think you would find Victoria much closer to what you want out of this game.

I agree with you, and I have said it before that the notion of open vs closed societies and the ties between far left and far right became an issue post war due to the works of Karl Popper. I agree with you that for HOI purposes there were antagonists, as it was the perception at the time.

However, the initial discussion was about the transition and dissent values in conquered territories, so probably it will be correct to make dissent a non linear single axis issue but dependent on coefficients to a number of factors and not just left or right.

However I disagree with you about the importance of economics-politics in the game, the importance of managing a country from an economic and diplomatic point of view are huge in the game, election of certain ministers, changing the slides to hawk -dove lobby, etc..... politics affects IC, diplomacy cost, espionage, manpower, dissent and trade. And therefore affect movement, logistics, TC and what you are able to built, and therefore affects your tactics and strategies

Germany, USSR or any of the minors are a great example about it, specially in very hard level. The politics/economics of the game is the key to understand differences between countries

 

[unmerged(110051)]

OFFTOPIC - take your political rants elsewhere.

marvelous contribution !!! I am impressed.

 

[Raczynski]

The Italian fascism and the Spanish "Falange", were very much socialist. Just a curious data, you would have heard about the "Blaue Division", the divison that Franco sent to fight on the Eastern Front, was called "blue" because of the original uniform, the blue shirt of the Falange that came from the "Blue collar", the working clothes.

Wait, so being a blue collar worker makes you automatically a socialist
All kinds of parties around the world made the pretence of representing "the common people". Today as well as in the past, many critiques of the leftwing are based on it being out of touch with real life Ivory Tower intellectuals and contrasting it with the honest, god-fearing, working class regular folks. William Henry Harrison was running a campaign based on living in a log cabin in 1840 already. Was he a socialist, too?
It's also quite astounding that you can present the Falange as socialist when they directly rebelled against a governemt of Popular Front, coalition of all Spanish political forces that considered themself left wing.

The roots of the Antisemitism came basically for being socialist, as jews were the utmost representation of liberalism and capitalism, and therefore were hated by "socialists".

Wow, that's another bold claim. They are many causes of antisemitism, and the one you present seems to be a comparatively minor ones.
There's a religious antisemitism (which obviously has little to with socialism), and the economic antisemitism was mostly based on Jews being a dangerous COMPETION in trade, industry and professional occupations (Law, Medicine). Most of people who felt endangered by Jewish ecomical advasement were definetly not of socialist inclinations.
On the other hand, Jews tended to be overrepresanted in the socialist and communist parties (not suprisingly, giving their internationalistic and egalitarian stances). So this assosiation of antisemitism and socialism seems to be in large part your own invention.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Ok here we go from the top. We use Left/Right for game play purposes not out of any statement about poltical science. Communism and Fascism set on the extreme fringes because they are ideologically opposed to each other and no other reason. As Fascism finds its allies on the right and Communism on the left we set Fascism to extreme right and Communism to extreme left. This model does exactly what we want them to.

Obviously, game play comes first. But it might be worth thinking about chaing the name of the slider to whatever it is you mean by the concept. Maybe from "right-left" to something like "private property - state ownership."

 

[Arilou]

Obviously, game play comes first. But it might be worth thinking about chaing the name of the slider to whatever it is you mean by the concept. Maybe from "right-left" to something like "private property - state ownership."

Err, that's what the Free Market-Central Planning slider is for. (at least in HOI2)