Political generals (idea for HOI3)

[ElQuapo]

Could it be possible to add a political tag for each general in HOI3?

Every general in the game could have certain governments he would fight for - this way you would avoid the problem often seen in HOI2, where fascist generals would continue fighting for Italy when they switch sides after an Allied invasion. Or avoid having Himmler as a general for a democratic Germany.

You could also have conservative generals removed from the pool if a communist/socialist government took over a country.

So each general could have two numbers assigned, from 0 to 10, where 0 would mean stalinist governments, and 10 that he would mean nazi governments. Generals could then have all sorts of pairs.

0,0 (only for a stalinist government)
0,3 (only for very leftwing governments)
0,10 (would allways fight for his country)
3,6 (only for moderate democratic governments)
7,10 (only for rightwing governments)
10,10 (only for nazi governments)
etc.

 

[Xz2]

Good idea!

 

[MaybeNever]

Interesting idea, but it seems like a lot of work for a relatively small return, and a lot of generals would just have arbitrary guesses applied to their political score. There might be specific examples that could be avoided, but I wonder if Himmler wouldn't be willing to cooperate with a democratic Germany, or Zhukov fight for a democratic Russia. It might seem silly to see, but honestly I think that implementing this would be counter-productive.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

It would be just great to simulate the leaders loyality!
For example PA leader could as well be quite good for fascists and nazis but will be unloyal for all left-wing governments. So when the ruling government will turn to commie he will be less obedient and when a country falls apart he would most likely rebel - when unity falls the chances are getting higher and in civil war he would 100% turn against them.
OTOH Nazi wouldnt work for Stalinist at all and vice versa. Its not hard to implement IMO.

 

[ElQuapo]

Interesting idea, but it seems like a lot of work for a relatively small return, and a lot of generals would just have arbitrary guesses applied to their political score. There might be specific examples that could be avoided, but I wonder if Himmler wouldn't be willing to cooperate with a democratic Germany, or Zhukov fight for a democratic Russia. It might seem silly to see, but honestly I think that implementing this would be counter-productive.

Most generals could just be willing to fight for any government - it could be used to stop the biggest mistakes like communists fighting for a fascist Russia, nazis for a democratic Germany, anarchists for Nationalist Spain etc.

Mods could then research it more, where as the vanila game would just have the most obvious generals researched.

Political affiliation could also determine which side generals would be most likely to join in a civil war.

Along the same lines, we also need a system that makes sure a general is not represented twice in the game for different countries/parties. In HOI2 you could also have wierd situations where generals where fighting for both Italy and Mussolini's Italian Social Republic - sometimes even commanding battles against themselves.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

Something like

ST/LE LW Democr PA FA/NZ:

- ST/LE could work for democracies but not for the opposite side PA FA/NZ
the same with FA/NZ (not for ST/LE LW)
- LW and PA could not go far in the opposite site (ST/LE FA/NZ) but work for each other
- Democratic leaders for all

 

[ElQuapo]

Something like

ST/LE LW Democr PA FA/NZ:

- ST/LE could work for democracies but not for the opposite side PA FA/NZ
the same with FA/NZ (not for ST/LE LW)
- LW and PA could not go far in the opposite site (ST/LE FA/NZ) but work for each other
- Democratic leaders for all

I agree in principle, but I am not sure with the last line.

Would all democratic leaders really work for any government?

For example some of the British aristocratic generals - would they really work for a communist government? You could of course just code them as being PA's, then it would work correctly.

I just think it would be great to have the opportunity to set individual preferences for each general in the game. Your list could then be used as a guideline, but individual generals could have other preferences.

 

[unmerged(52507)]

I dunno, I think a lot of thugs could fight for lots of different govt types. I'm not sure that you could acurately pick the different possibilities for each general in each ahistorical situation

 

[ElQuapo]

I dunno, I think a lot of thugs could fight for lots of different govt types. I'm not sure that you could acurately pick the different possibilities for each general in each ahistorical situation

I can see the problem, but it could be solved by most generals just being indifferent - while at the same time we could avoid the obvious mistakes, like Himmler being a general for a communist Germany, spanish POUM/CNT etc. leaders fighting for Nationalist Spain or a guy like Italo Balbo (a blackshirt) fighting for a democratic Italy against Mussolini.

I know I am repeating myself a bit

 

[Ceeker]

I think it's a cool idea, perhaps hard to implement in all circumstances as already noted but political ministers already work in this exact same way in HOI2. It adds a lot of flavour especially if you enjoy alternative history scenarios (The flexibility to turn a democracy into a PA or LWR is possible before 1939 in most HOI2 nations, surely i'm not the only person who enjoys doing this but questions, say, Patton being a general in a LWR or communist United States?).

As a side note - Could also make the purge events in the USSR more interesting and dynamic if you get the option to purge all generals that have an alignment less than "Stalinist". Ditto opportunities for dissent in the ranks and possibly even alignment shifts when the war appears lost for Germany.

 

[Black Lotus]

Could work, however it's hard to tell if generals would have switched sides if the government changed. It's all just speculation.

 

[Raczynski]

Interesting idea, but it seems like a lot of work for a relatively small return, and a lot of generals would just have arbitrary guesses applied to their political score. There might be specific examples that could be avoided, but I wonder if Himmler wouldn't be willing to cooperate with a democratic Germany, or Zhukov fight for a democratic Russia. It might seem silly to see, but honestly I think that implementing this would be counter-productive.

I agree it's a lot of work, but it would be great if Paradox at least provided the POSSIBILITY to do so. Everything can be set at default at the beggining (all the ideologies), but allow MODDERS to change it.
In your example: Himmler actually should be only a Nazi/Fascist leader, as he was a totally untalented amateur in military matters and even PA government (which guys like Beck, Fritsh, etc.) woudn't want him

 

[Raczynski]

Could work, however it's hard to tell if generals would have switched sides if the government changed. It's all just speculation.

It's not all speculation. For example, some of the Polish generals of the pre-war army returned to active service in Communist-dominated Poland after 1945, but practically all of them were fired/arrested by the late 1940's, (when, in game terms, regime changed from LWR/LE to Stalinist).
Also, it makes absolutely no sense to have communist generals start in the Polish army in 1936. If we had this modiffers, we could have made them dormant only to activate them in regime changes.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I would think that events are the better choice for this sort of thing. We don't even know if divisions can rebel without event, do we?

 

[unmerged(134661)]

It's not all speculation. For example, some of the Polish generals of the pre-war army returned to active service in Communist-dominated Poland after 1945, but practically all of them were fired/arrested by the late 1940's, (when, in game terms, regime changed from LWR/LE to Stalinist).
Also, it makes absolutely no sense to have communist generals start in the Polish army in 1936. If we had this modiffers, we could have made them dormant only to activate them in regime changes.

Whenever you have regime change, it's pretty common to clean house. You don't want the guys with the guns in power that were loyal to prior leaders.

This has less to do with political views and far more to do with ensuring the loyalty and safety of your new regime.

 

[Nostra]

Most Generals swore an oath to their country not the Goverment ruling it
( yeha, Wehrmacht Oath is an exception here ) so i guess they would still fighting if they are not loyal since it´s still your country you would abandon and therefore everything you fought for in the first place

 

[unmerged(134661)]

Most Generals swore an oath to their country not the Goverment ruling it
( yeha, Wehrmacht Oath is an exception here ) so i guess they would still fighting if they are not loyal since it´s still your country you would abandon and therefore everything you fought for in the first place

There are two types of possible change:

1) Sudden and forced (e.g. cout d'etat, occupationally forced regime change, revolutions, etc.)

2) Gradual changing of culture, politics, etc.


Typically when #1 occurs, most people consider it as an attack on the country they swore an oath to defend. If tomorrow Barrack decided that he would become a communist state, do you think his generals would say "I swore an oath to the US, so I'm going to stick around"?

I doubt you can name many cases where the military leaders of the prior regime actually stick around. They'll either fight openly, leave the country, resign, be killed or 'tried' and then killed.

Some may want to stick around but the new leader will not be overly trusting of someone that was a senior advisor to the enemy. When the US invaded Iraq, the first thing they did was fire every member of the military. Turned out to be a bad decision but it's pretty common.

 

[Raczynski]

Most Generals swore an oath to their country not the Goverment ruling it
( yeha, Wehrmacht Oath is an exception here ) so i guess they would still fighting if they are not loyal since it´s still your country you would abandon and therefore everything you fought for in the first place

There's still the question whatever the government would want them.

 

[MaybeNever]

I wouldn't be opposed to it being implemented, as there are some cases where it's obvious that generals should be removed and it'd be a tool for modders. But I think it wouldn't see a whole lot of use in vanilla.

 

[Myth]

Actually, it could be very useful in events such as the Great Officer Purge. Rather than having a lost list of individual leaders, the event could have kill 90% of LWR, 50% of LE and 10% of ST leaders or something. It'd keep the randomness while at the same time essentially kill off the guys that historically were killed off since they were LWR or LE rather than straight ST. For Germany, for an successful July '44 assassination attempt, it could kill off all NS leaders, or for an unsuccessful attempt kill off most/all PA and some FA leaders. And then, of course, there's other regime changes.