Polish Uprisings

[pithorr]

What are your opinnions about Polish rebellions:
1) 1830 against Russians.
2) 1863 against Russins
3) Wielkopolska and Silesia 1918 against Germans.
4) Warsaw Uprising 1944.
My point:
ad 1) With some more luck and better command it had some chance for success. Army of Polish Kingdom was good equiped and excellent trained, Russians have not cured their Napoleonic wounds yet, so the independence achivement was possible... However after uprising collapse cosequences, particularly economic ones, were disastrous.
ad 2) Stupidity.
ad 3) Succesful! Unbelievable!
ad 4) Total stupid masacre. It was obvious that Stalin would not help having such ideal assistance to terminate Home Army and Polish elites to introduce his communist pupils. Efect: most important Polish town with its industry, univerities, cultural facilities etc. reduced to dust, 300k dead, including 150k civilians. Most of casualties were elites and brave students (thieves, smugglers, hookers and other scum had not presented such patriotic exultation). Horrible stupidity I mean AK (Home Army) command...

 

[unmerged(7958)]

Even during the stalinism era people of Warsaw used to celebrate the anniversary of the uprising. It is the most important sign that Poles didn't want communists to take control over their country. We can call it a mistake, but not a stupidity. Those people, even if they act wrong, were not a pack of idiots. They were patriots during the time of war, and after 5 years of occupation they saw a chance to break free. Bloody masacre, made by both - Hitler and Stalin, was not a fault of general Tadeusz Bor-Komorowski, as communists used to say. You have to remember about those polish soldiers who were looking at the burning city from the eastern bank of the river. They were prepared to fight, but Stalin let them so when uprising was in fact over. And about prime minister Mikolajczyk's mission to Moscow, his talks with communists. Nobody could expect, that Red Army will not help. In any possible way.

W.

 

[unmerged(5659)]

My opinions on the uprisings.

Here ya go:

1) Uprising of 1830. I guess in a way it did work with the Sejm in power and announcing an independent kindgom. But when the Russian army came in 1831, many of the aristocracy in Poland sold it out and took some of their troops with them (and kept their property in the Ukraine and Poland-Lith as a result). My opinion? Poland lost the battle, but announced to the world that it would not remain under anyone's yoke and was willing to fight for its independence.

2) Uprising of 1869. I don't know much about this one, but it would seem to me that this one was doomed. It had the support of much of the peasantry and the countryside, but the cities where the Russian ruthlessly hunted down the anyone considered to be 'intellectual' and imposed terrible restrictions on the people there -did not support it. The guerillas were by and large untrained peasants, and the Russians made mince-meat out of them. My opionion? Bad timing, wish more of the dissatisfied intellectuals would have been hung rather than the peasantry. Great food crisises caused much suffering all of that year and the next.

3) 1918. I know even less about this one, but the newly formed Polish Army made up of Polish-Russo Army vets fought hard to retake "Great Poland". It was bloody, the Germans had no stomach for war -and thus gave it up after a relatively brief struggle. My opinion? Looks like Poland took back what was theirs to begin with.

4) Warsaw Uprising of 1944. I think for what it was, the uprising was well-planned and executed. From my understand, they actually were given lip-service by the Russians that they would receive support (in what way though I don't know). In the end, the Russians even stopped shelling Warsaw during this time and their Juggernaut stopped a meagre 17 miles outside of the capital. My opinion? The Polish fought bravely and well against insurmountable odds and the Soviets couldn't have cared less. A terrible shame.

 

[Kasperus]

1.Almost successfull, quite suprisingly. For 8,5 month Poland was an independant country. It would be interesting however if the country, even if it would be able to keep it`s independance could have survived long. I mean, the creation wasn`t a very stabilizing factor on political Europe. I don`t think the every one of the 3 black eagles would not try to make a territorial profit on the other 2. Also I don`t think Poles, once independant would just conclude: "well, we`re independant now so let live long and peacufull further with what we achieved". The goal would probably be again the pre-1772 border which would cause many devastating wars with worst possible effects on population and economy.
2.I cannot say much about that one as I don`t know anything about it.
3.I`m quite reluctant to call it a real "successfull" uprising. In fact at one moment there weren`t really other possibilities in the vacuum created during the war. About the following wars against SU my opinion is quite negative as I stated in some other threads.
4.If that one would be better prepared it could perhaps change the history (or not, nobody knows). A succesfull uprising would create more possibilities for non-communistic leaderschip of Poland, perhaps something in the spirit of Yugoslavia with more autonomy from SU. On the other hand the massacre of Warsaw had much mental influence on the polish-russian relations (maybe even as big as Katyn) which perhaps gived just a little bit more willingness to get rid of the communism, which for Poland IMO meant in the first place to get rid of the Russians.

 

[unmerged(7646)]

1) I agree with Kasperus mostly

2) 1863 January uprising, 0 possibility of winning, in addition Tzar gave peasants some rights (abolished serfdom) just before Temporary Uprising Government and peasants listened to Tzar not guerillas, many say it was stupid, well acctually in our perspective there was no sens in this uprising, additionally Tzar wanted to give some autonomy to Poland, but people who lived those days was the generation of 'kids of 1830 uprising', they hated Russians, and they did what thought is right,

3) here question is not precise,

1918 - anti-German uprising in Wielkopolska , the only 100% successful uprising in Polish history as I remember, we took from Germans our land, nothing to discuss, whole uprising was won by guerillas, official Polish military had nothing to do with it (officially of course )

1919 - 1st Silesia Uprising
1920 - 2nd Silesia Uprising
1921 - 3rd Silesia Uprising

well these uprisings were also successful in some part, Poland took back a piece of Silesia from Germans, uprisings are celebrated every year in Poland

consequence of those uprisings was taking some land from Germans and very very possible war between Poland and Germany in 20. (I dont remember why the war didnt take place)

4) Warsaw Uprising, It started in August and lasted for 63 days, well planned but... Soviets did everything to finish Polish indepepndent organizations, they were on the other bank of Vistula, watching whole event, only Polish Regiment (of Polish forces in the East, Polish army formed in Russia) broke direct orders and swam through Vistuala to help guerillas, Allies sent some help, air drops, food, ammo and weapons were needed but our beloved soviets have not allowed Ally planes to land.. after 63 days more than 200,000 guerillas and civils were dead and Warsaw totally destroyed, after WWII even talking about Warsaw uprising was not allowed and you could lost your life because of this

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by short_dude
1) I agree with Kasperus mostly

I cannot believe it!

1919 - 1st Silesia Uprising
1920 - 2nd Silesia Uprising
1921 - 3rd Silesia Uprising

Were that really uprisings than? I thought Polish historiography just needed a term for French give-away-German-territory-policy of those days... I seem to remember something of a plebiscite that Germans actually won but poles added it still to it`s country after some violent actions (DISCLAIMER: my source was a very-anti-polish writer so it could be wrong)

 

[unmerged(7557)]

The reason the Germans won in the plebiscites where the reasons for the violent actions. I had a article that explained it somewhere. It said that the plebiscites where basicly fixed in that Germans would cross the border vote and the go back to Germany. And since this happened violence followed. But then again I dont exactly know if that happened or not.

 

[unmerged(7646)]

yeah Germans moved few hundred thousand people to Silesia to win the plebiscity,

and those uprisings were true uprisings, but this was something different than for example 1830 uprising, 1st and 2nd Silesia uprising could count only on their local forces, Poland could not officially do anything to help them, in fact Poland was involved in war with Soviets and needed all troops in the East, I 'remember' that the real here of those uprisings was Wojciech Korfanty (I guess I remember )

well of course there are 2 sides of each story, westerns have right to see some history in their way what they mostly do

 

[Kasperus]

As it could have been that Germans went to the other side of the border to get more votes, it could have been Poles did exactly the same IMO.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Kasperus
As it could have been that Germans went to the other side of the border to get more votes, it could have been Poles did exactly the same IMO.

Hardly possible, since this area was German controlled.

It wasn't the other side of border, btw, they were brought, for example, from Berlin.

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Maur13

Hardly possible, since this area was German controlled.

It wasn't the other side of border, btw, they were brought, for example, from Berlin.

Hmm, controlled? What was controlled in Germany after WW1? The whole country was desintegrated, one reason why the uprising of 1918 went so easy.

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Kasperus
Hmm, controlled? What was controlled in Germany after WW1? The whole country was desintegrated, one reason why the uprising of 1918 went so easy.

???
You have probably mistaken Germany with Soviet Russia...

 

[unmerged(7646)]

the only uprising which came "easy" was uprising of Wielkopolska, bagan in November 1918 and Allies decided that uprising was the part of war and gave Wielkopolska to Poland,

Silesia was the different story, Germans still had army , dont forget about it, Silesia was controlled by Germans, they also had they special militia to threat Poles and stuff like this

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by pithorr

???
You have probably mistaken Germany with Soviet Russia...

No, actually I meant territory that Germany in the beginning of the war occupied of Russian empire. I can be very mistaken but if Wielkopolska is still there where I thought it was then it was german before WW1

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Kasperus
No, actually I meant territory that Germany in the beginning of the war occupied of Russian empire. I can be very mistaken but if Wielkopolska is still there where I thought it was then it was german before WW1

And Pithorr meant that you probably meant Russia, as it was Russia which disintegrated, not Germany. Ever heard of Freikorps?

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Maur13

And Pithorr meant that you probably meant Russia, as it was Russia which disintegrated, not Germany. Ever heard of Freikorps?

I probably watched Germany after WW1 to much in view of it`s situation after WW2. Germany was of course almost untouched by the WW1. So my arguments weren`t very well chosen. My excuse for that.
Of course, my describing of (in that case) former Russian territory still stands.

 

[unmerged(5578)]

1830 - our (I'm from Poland) ancestors were brave but failed. It's hard to fight with almost no chances to rebuild troops, equip them etc. BUT!!!
Because of Polish uprising, revolution in Belgium (against Holland) was successful, so at least other nation had fought it's freedom!!!
Isn't it wonderful !

 

[unmerged(6898)]

Originally posted by Waltan
1830 - our (I'm from Poland) ancestors were brave but failed. It's hard to fight with almost no chances to rebuild troops, equip them etc. BUT!!!
Because of Polish uprising, revolution in Belgium (against Holland) was successful, so at least other nation had fought it's freedom!!!
Isn't it wonderful !

How?
co ma piernik do wiatraka?

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Waltan
1830 - our (I'm from Poland) ancestors were brave but failed. It's hard to fight with almost no chances to rebuild troops, equip them etc. BUT!!!
Because of Polish uprising, revolution in Belgium (against Holland) was successful, so at least other nation had fought it's freedom!!!
Isn't it wonderful !

Because of Polish uprising? No, not really.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Kasperus

Because of Polish uprising? No, not really.

He probably means that we effectively stopped Russian intervention.