Polish Tank Tech Tree

[Moppy771]

Yes people, the Poles did have tanks, and quite a few of them in fact. :laugh:

Essentially, if a player would want to try their luck with Poland (and they must be pretty lucky) then I think they need a nice immersive experience with Poland, this includes avoiding generic tank icons/names/models and giving them some nice Polish flare. The minors need some loving people. :happy:

So I've spent the better part of my day researching Polish tanks before and during the start of WW2, and this was the result:



Poland actually had a legitimate light reconnaissance tank program (hence the early light tank line).

With the outbreak of the war, the best tanks that Poland was armed with was the 7TP tanks. They were better than Panzer Is, and were just below Panzer IIs (with a later upgrade [9TP] actually equalizing the two, but not much were upgraded to that state).

The 10TP tanks were just starting to be produced (almost as good as a Panzer III) when the Germans invaded and the 14TP tank was being tested during that invasion, which was planned to boast pretty good armour and armament that could make it go toe to toe with a Panzer III any day.

The 20TP, 25TP KSUS and 25TP PZInz were all being designed and were quite ahead of their time.

Get ready for this folks, Poland actually had an obscure idea for a Super Heavy Tank. :rofl:

Behold, an artist's representation of the mighty Czolg P :



Sadly, I've decided to exclude the anti-tank rifle armed horsemen from the tree, because they are seriously OP. Sorry people, but this is balancing.


In this instance, two German infantrymen flee from the mighty Polish armour.

So what do you think?

EDIT: Current design:



{My other tank thread: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?782567-Italian-Tank-tech-tree }

 

[keynes2.0]

The prototypes extend the line a lot farther then I would have thought. That's neat.

Shouldn't the medium tank in '41 be the TP20 or TP20 BBTB? Either that or the other TP would need to be heavier than 25 tonnes, they shouldn't have a heavy and a light at the same weight.

 

[Moppy771]

The prototypes extend the line a lot farther then I would have thought. That's neat.

Shouldn't the medium tank in '41 be the TP20 or TP20 BBTB? Either that or the other TP would need to be heavier than 25 tonnes, they shouldn't have a heavy and a light at the same weight.

Yes, when the 25TP PZInz was scribbled on a piece of paper it was designated at weighing 25 tons (hence the name), but I do think that if Poland had lasted longer they would have at least put more armour on it. We could simply rename it 45TP PZInz (pretending they would have added more armour eventually) however.... (it was a design, a few tweaks so that it matches up to the era it would have been produced couldn't hurt.)

I mean the Tiger I was supposed to weigh 33 tons, until Mr. Adolf decided to slap more armour onto it in its later design stages until it weighed 54. :blink:

 

[Moppy771]

New design:



Decided to remove the TKW (which was essentially just a tankette conveniently used for reconnaissance). But, after some digging, I found an early war further development of the 4TP; the PZInz 130.

I also changed the name of the 25TP PZInz to 45TP PZInz, assuming that if this heavy tank ever entered production it would have had more armour (note that when it was being designed, 25 tons WAS pretty heavy for the time), eventually reaching 45 tons.

What do you think?

 

[dzulPl]

For me this tree looks great,it's really nice that you want Poland to get some love

 

[Gamer_1745]

I like the thought behind what you are doing! I only see it being of limited use (the latter models) if Germany delays starting the war. The 7TP was nearly as useful as an early Pz III (Pz III had a better 3 man turret) and I would think it would be kept in production and not the production interruption of going to a later model.

I do like tanks mods, so I am all for building this!

 

[Daunus]

That Czolg P model looks pretty cool btw

 

[Moppy771]

I like the thought behind what you are doing! I only see it being of limited use (the latter models) if Germany delays starting the war. The 7TP was nearly as useful as an early Pz III (Pz III had a better 3 man turret) and I would think it would be kept in production and not the production interruption of going to a later model.

I do like tanks mods, so I am all for building this!

Thanks :happy:

I understand your point, I did indeed try to see which tanks would beat which to decide where they should be allocated. The polish tanks just seem to lie between rather than be equal to the German ones. Many people forget that German tanks were actually weaker than their allied contenders. What made them win battles were the fast Blitzkrieg tactics that favored mobile tanks.

Panzer I: Armour 13 mm---------------------[ 7TP: Armour 17 mm
Armament 2 x 7.92 mm MGs---------[Armament 37 mm gun

Winner: Poland

Panzer II: Armour 30 mm---------------------[10TP: Armour 20 mm
Armament 20 mm gun---------------[Armament 37 mm gun

Winner: Poland

Panzer III (Ausf D): Armour 30 mm------------[14TP: Armour 40 mm
Armament 37 mm gun---------------[Armament 47 mm gun

Winner: Poland

Result? Polska jest silna

 

[dzulPl]

,,Polska jest silna'' indeed However we had too few tanks to make any diffrence

 

[Moppy771]

,,Polska jest silna'' indeed However we had too few tanks to make any diffrence

I know right? Plus the Russians were knocking on your backdoor.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Pz III Ausf F crew of 5 and FuG5 Radios in all tanks

7TP jw crew of 3 and N2C RKBc radios only in 38 cammand tanks

Winner: Pz III

 

[Moppy771]

Pz III Ausf F crew of 5 and FuG5 Radios in all tanks

7TP jw crew of 3 and N2C RKBc radios only in 38 cammand tanks

Winner: Pz III

Well, obviously 7TP is beaten by Panzer III. I did not pair them. :huh:

Hence, we have the historic result of the invasion of Poland. Too many obsolete tanks for Poland, while the good ones were just being made.

And don't forget that half of Germany's tank force was made up of Czechoslovakian Panzer 35s and 38s.

Pz III Ausf F

The Panzer III Ausf F never saw servive in the invasion of Poland.....

 

[Gamer_1745]

True, it was the E which had the same radio.

The German version of the 38t had a crew of 4 and radios as well as being one of the best driving tanks.

My comparison was of 37mm armed tanks. And my point is that armor & guns are not always the main reasons tank battles are won or lost.

Germany mainly had Pz I & II's for the Polish campaign. The Pz II might be able to knockout a Polish tank. They mainly overwhelmed infantry.

 

[Moppy771]

True, it was the E which had the same radio.

The German version of the 38t had a crew of 4 and radios as well as being one of the best driving tanks.

My comparison was of 37mm armed tanks. And my point is that armor & guns are not always the main reasons tank battles are won or lost.

Germany mainly had Pz I & II's for the Polish campaign. The Pz II might be able to knockout a Polish tank. They mainly overwhelmed infantry.

Ok, I understand what you meant now, I just took gun and armour because in a head on confrontation they are usually the deciding factors, but radios and mobility is what gave the Germans the advantage. But by "a Polish tank" what model do you mean? The 7TP?

 

[Gamer_1745]

A 7.92mm machinegun that was mounted on a Pz I would not knockout a tank or tankette. The 20mm might (depends on which model and where it hit). By "a Polish tank" I mean any model the was made, not possible/planned models. I think the 37mm Bofors gun on the 7TP could/would knockout all models of Panzer from I - IV that were in use in 1939.

 

[Moppy771]

Ok..... should there be any changes to the tree then?

 

[Gamer_1745]

Maybe?

May I ask, what is this tech tree for? So the Devs can have better images & model names to go with their standard models? Or for a mod/DLC that works to accurately portray Polish tanks?

 

[Moppy771]

Maybe?

May I ask, what is this tech tree for? So the Devs can have better images & model names to go with their standard models? Or for a mod/DLC that works to accurately portray Polish tanks?

Hopefully the former. Why should only the majors receive unique models? :wub:

I mean who wants to see factories crank out "heavy tank model II". An itching problem with HOI is that unless you play one of the majors OR if you are just incredibly imaginative, playing minors is generic and bland. Suggesting this solves the problem.

 

[dzulPl]

Exactly ,I personally buy every single DLC that does anything to Poland,it would be nice to Poland get some love in HoI4 as it is often abused in other WW2 games.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Then I think it is fine. Since the model names & images change between nations, but stats don't. They can develop with combat experience and Poland won't last long enough to get combat experience.

Now when modders get to work developing historical tank models (after the system developed and we can take a look at it) and the year date & model progression won't be the same for all nations.