Policies by Phenotype?

[Turin the Mad]

Will it be possible to set "Sub-policies" by an encountered species' phenotype?

Examples: Instead of a blanket "hostile" first contact policy, my arachnid space monsters select first contact policies and slavery policies (among others) by phenotype.

First Contact
(Peaceful) Arthropod, Molluscoid
(Violent) Avian, Mammalian, Reptilian, Other [depending on what falls under "other"]
(Afraid) Fungoid

Slavery
(No) Arthropod, Molluscoid
(Yes) Avian, Mammalian, Reptilian, Other
(Purge upon conquest) Fungoid

 

[Sopot]

First Contact
(Peaceful) Arthropod, Molluscoid
(Violent) Avian, Mammalian, Reptilian, Other [depending on what falls under "other"]
(Afraid) Fungoid

Slavery
(No) Arthropod, Molluscoid
(Yes) Avian, Mammalian, Reptilian, Other
(Purge upon conquest) Fungoid

The only problem here is that you don't know what phenotype you are meeting during a first contact, untill you establish communications, and when that happens, you are now neutral anyways.

 

[mrinku]

Mmm... I think this is better dealt with by traits, ethics and edicts. There's already a positive opinion modifier based on same phenotype, I think.

The real trouble is that phenotypes are REALLY broad. "Arthropod" seems to cover anything with an exoskeleton - spiders, bees, wasps, lobsters, ladybugs and hermit crabs are all terran examples, and human reactions to those examples vary widely. Many, many people are scared of spiders and wasps, some are scared of bees, very few are scared of laybugs or hermit crabs. Lobsters are largely regarded as delicious, not dangerous.

Having said that, I could see a trait along these lines to represent a baked in racial phobia.

 

[Mordaith]

I am just guessing this is not an option at launch. But that would make for a killer update, or addition to a DLC.

 

[Turin the Mad]

The only problem here is that you don't know what phenotype you are meeting during a first contact, until you establish communications, and when that happens, you are now neutral anyways.

First contact IIRC from the Blorgstream gives you an immediate option to see the phenotype. 'course, I could be remembering the more recent Blorgisodes and not the earliest Blorgisodes, to be fair.

 

[Fonz]

First contact IIRC from the Blorgstream gives you an immediate option to see the phenotype. 'course, I could be remembering the more recent Blorgisodes and not the earliest Blorgisodes, to be fair.

I'm pretty sure it's just that you can recognize their phenotype from their ships, but you don't actually "know" what phenotype they are in game.

 

[Turin the Mad]

I'm pretty sure it's just that you can recognize their phenotype from their ships, but you don't actually "know" what phenotype they are in game.

Works for me.

 

[Fonz]

Works for me.

But then it kind of doesn't make sense to have that option, yes YOU the player knows because for game development reasons all phenotypes only have 1 ship style, it's "meta-knowledge" so to speak. Your own race in the game can't just see the ship and immediately say "That's a bird ship" like you the player can.

 

[Turin the Mad]

But then it kind of doesn't make sense to have that option, yes YOU the player knows because for game development reasons all phenotypes only have 1 ship style, it's "meta-knowledge" so to speak. Your own race in the game can't just see the ship and immediately say "That's a bird ship" like you the player can.

Yes ... and no. Blanket xenophobia doesn't really cut the mustard on first contact policies especially.

Then again, what I'm thinking of could be reasonably accessible via a sociology tech that triggers as an "outlined tech" once you've contacted/been contacted by one of each non-fallen-empire phenotype in your quadrant/half of the galaxy.

 

[Giacomo1405]

yes, it's only reasonable that a mammalian xenophobic empire is less hostile towards a reptilian than toward a fungus (who's completly different)

 

[Turin the Mad]

yes, it's only reasonable that a mammalian xenophobic empire is less hostile towards a reptilian than toward a fungus (who's completly different)

And said fungoids might be viewed as edible...

 

[aitaituo]

Mmm... I think this is better dealt with by traits, ethics and edicts. There's already a positive opinion modifier based on same phenotype, I think.

The real trouble is that phenotypes are REALLY broad. "Arthropod" seems to cover anything with an exoskeleton - spiders, bees, wasps, lobsters, ladybugs and hermit crabs are all terran examples, and human reactions to those examples vary widely. Many, many people are scared of spiders and wasps, some are scared of bees, very few are scared of laybugs or hermit crabs. Lobsters are largely regarded as delicious, not dangerous.

Having said that, I could see a trait along these lines to represent a baked in racial phobia.

Space racism just doesn't make a lot of sense conceptually. You'll never have any actual genetic relation to any xeno, so having different policies based on superficial similarities is like aesethetics based morality.

 

[Turin the Mad]

Space racism just doesn't make a lot of sense conceptually. You'll never have any actual genetic relation to any xeno, so having different policies based on superficial similarities is like aesethetics based morality.

Xenophobia is space racism, is it not? For a xenophobic species (especially a non-fanatical xenophobic species) 'space racism by phenotype' seems part and parcel.

 

[aitaituo]

Xenophobia is space racism, is it not? For a xenophobic species (especially a non-fanatical xenophobic species) 'space racism by phenotype' seems part and parcel.

Racism in the sense of classify according to race, not discrimination in general. Race does not make sense with aliens, because the only similarity to base a classification on is superficial traits. Maybe Avian 1 and Avian 16 find each other less disgusting than Mammalian 1, but it's hard to believe they'd establish any kind of policy around that.

 

[corny.1234]

I still hope, as I wrote in
another post, to have a DLC
where you will have the possibility to declare a galaxy wide crusade against all species of a certain phenotype.
Wipe the mushrooms from the galaxy!!
(just an example, I'm not a space nazi, in real life I like mushrooms, especially as topic on pizza )

 

[Trithemius]

Racism in the sense of classify according to race, not discrimination in general. Race does not make sense with aliens, because the only similarity to base a classification on is superficial traits. Maybe Avian 1 and Avian 16 find each other less disgusting than Mammalian 1, but it's hard to believe they'd establish any kind of policy around that.

Xenophobic Ethics supports structural exploitation on the basis of otherness so it is a lot like racism. There might be a [lowercase x] xenophobia happiness penalty for otherness which isn't racism in the way human societies are racist now (which is offset by Xenophilia?) but which (historically in our societies) had led to those structures of exploitation being established?

 

[Turin the Mad]

Phobia is an irrational fear, which is the angle I'm coming from.
I presume that it could have a variant involving speciesism not necessarily revolving around enslavement, as noted above.

Maybe we'll get such options as a DLC or a mod!

If there is to be an ethos built around slavery, perhaps it should have been identified as something other than a word whose definition is 'a deep, irrational fear of that which is alien'.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I don't know. It just seems to broad and vague. There are plenty of mammals, birds, and reptiles (maybe not many birds) that put humans on edge, while there are many invertebrates that humans would be very comfortable around (many mollusks, arthropods like bees or butterflies, not sure about fungi since we are naturally supposed to avoid fungi). How individuals react to these aliens is also completely subjective, for example one Human might just find bats and snakes much more settling than bees or butterflies. There are just people who are afraid of spiders but would have any snake slither around them, or the other way around, I know people who are completely comfortable around large spiders and scorpions but show them a rat snake and they piss themselves (I am one who hates spiders but is really comfortable around snakes). Then there is the fact that the alien you are looking at is intelligent, which will change so much of how you perceive it. Is an intelligent spider less scary than an unintelligent one, because you think it can control itself? Or is an intelligent spider more scary because it is intelligent? Basically, the matter of intelligence can either incite more fear, or incite reassurance due to the expectation that an intelligent being will control itself.

Marine vs Terrestrial also has some different reactions (since some of the alien portraits clearly look like they belong under the sea). I don't know about other people, but something being from the sea, even if it is directly related to a similar land animal, completely changes how I react to it. Crabs don't scare me like insects and spiders do, JUST because they live in the ocean, and this includes Japanese Spider Crabs. Meanwhile I won't touch a sea snake with a 10 foot pole because those things are damn dangerous. Speaking of crabs, there is also a matter that we are less afraid of animals we know to eat. I don't think many are going to get creeped out by an alien that looks like a shrimp, and might try to convince them that marinara sauce baths are "customary human tradition".

TL;DR it is completely subjective to individual how they react to aliens based on phenotype, even with collectivists since fears are unconscious. One spider might just have a soft spot for fungi, while another has one for birds, while another actually finds their own kind the most unsettling to look at.

 

[Ziffallo]

And said fungoids might be viewed as edible...

NO!

 

[Brownbeard]

I would not mind some Boletus Sapiens fried on butter.

As for phenotypes, do they play any ingame role other than graphics sets?

I have not seen anything to indicate otherwise. Are there any +/- modifiers on aynthing that are dependent on phenotype?