Poland vs Ottomans

[Stigandr]

Hi all,

Looking for help as Poland v the Ottomans. I've not played as Poland before, so was exploring the new electoral mechanics etc. Slowed Muscovy's growth, but didn't halt it. Fed Moscow and a few other provinces to Lithuania. Ate Teutons and Livonian Order (though Denmark picked up Estonia)

As well as PU'd Lithuania, I'm allied with Austria, Mamluks, and Great Horde (the last mostly to stop Muscowy eating them) and also have a vassalised Luneburg. Overall we outnumber Ottos and friends 2-1, and I declared war when they were already at war to their east (against QK and friends).

Reader, they annhilated us. Trashed mine and Austria's armies in the Balkans, then turned south and annhilated Mamluks. I gave up and quit when they sent their armies north to take on Lithuania and Great Horde in the Crimea.

Don't think I'm very good at this game, so it could be strategic incompetence on my part - but how do you actually take on the Ottomans before getting superstrong yourself? Their armies and generals are so good, and they can choose who they face, even if you surround them. Is it just a case of avoiding war with the Ottomans until much much later? (this was in early 16th C, should I wait until 17th or even 18th C?)

This was Ironman, so I'll have to start again, (even before they'd taken any of my land, when I asked them to suggest peace demands, they wanted half my country...) but any tips would be much appreciated!

Thanks,
Stigandr

 

[Sousuke123]

Usually the best time to attack Ottos is while they are engaged in a war with Mamluks. Once you have 7 tech rush to Constantipole and Gallipoli to quickly siege forts to block Ottos from crossing. You can contain them a little bit by quickly annexing Balkan states. Ususally Wallachia is allied with Herzegovina so you can vassalize the latter and kill Bosnia and Serbia before Ottos take Kosovo (gold mine). Besides why would you let live Muscovy? Just kill them. 100% of times they later get alliance with Ottos and you are f*cked. Do not ally nomads. Kill them and later use their provinces to convert to Sunni. Best religion for Commonwealth.

Edit: Actually the best is Twelver Shia with Zaydi madhab cooperation but it's harder to pull this off. If you're super lucky then NO CB Byzantium and vassalize them before Ottos kill them. So if they DoW Byz you'll be able to call your allies to defensive war against them.

 

[holyvigil]

Tell yourself the culmination of this entire game is to take out the Ottomans:

•Focus mil tech.
•Get allies who can declare war against the Ottomans.
•Guarantee Byzantium.
•Build a strong economy and focus on keeping a good stash of manpower and ducats.
•Wait until The Ottomans are in a war with Austria or the Mamluks.
•Go over force limit. Have the ideal army. Hire the disc advisor.
•Crush the Ottomans. After crushing the Ottomans crush them again and again.

 

[Stigandr]

Usually the best time to attack Ottos is while they are engaged in a war with Mamluks. Once you have 7 tech rush to Constantipole and Gallipoli to quickly siege forts to block Ottos from crossing. You can contain them a little bit by quickly annexing Balkan states. Ususally Wallachia is allied with Herzegovina so you can vassalize the latter and kill Bosnia and Serbia before Ottos take Kosovo (gold mine). Besides why would you let live Muscovy? Just kill them. 100% of times they later get alliance with Ottos and you are f*cked. Do not ally nomads. Kill them and later use their provinces to convert to Sunni. Best religion for Commonwealth.

Edit: Actually the best is Twelver Shia with Zaydi madhab cooperation but it's harder to pull this off. If you're super lucky then NO CB Byzantium and vassalize them before Ottos kill them. So if they DoW Byz you'll be able to call your allies to defensive war against them.

So I was already allied with both Mamluks and Austria, and the Ottos still crushed us. Are you saying I shouldn't ally Mamluks, and wait until they're in a separate war with the Ottos, so that all the Turkish armies are in the south, and I can siege Constantinople and Gallipoli to prevent Turkish troops coming back?

I didn't intentionally let Muscovy live - it's just that it had only been 80 years, and I seem to play slower/conquer slower than most of the pros here. I hadn't had time/manpower/money/AE to take all of Russia, and all of the Balkan minors, and the nomads, while also conquering the Teutons and Livonians before Denmark could get to them. Can most players conquer that quickly?

Also there's no way I'm converting to Sunni - I prefer to try and play vaguely realistically, and there's no way Poland would've converted to Sunni. I'd prefer to play them as Humanist Catholic (though other Christian denominations wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[Stigandr]

Tell yourself the culmination of this entire game is to take out the Ottomans:

•Focus mil tech.
•Get allies who can declare war against the Ottomans.
•Guarantee Byzantium.
•Build a strong economy and focus on keeping a good stash of manpower and ducats.
•Wait until The Ottomans are in a war with Austria or the Mamluks.
•Go over force limit. Have the ideal army. Hire the disc advisor.
•Crush the Ottomans. After crushing the Ottomans crush them again and again.

But surely keeping a good stash of manpower and ducats means you can't go and crush the Russians as well? At least in my experience I can beat Muscovy, but it does detract from my manpower. And I was already allied with austria and Mamluks, and Ottos still destroyed us. Are you suggesting avoid alliances with them, and let them have independent wars with Ottos? If so, who is better to ally?

 

[holyvigil]

But surely keeping a good stash of manpower and ducats means you can't go and crush the Russians as well? At least in my experience I can beat Muscovy, but it does detract from my manpower. And I was already allied with austria and Mamluks, and Ottos still destroyed us. Are you suggesting avoid alliances with them, and let them have independent wars with Ottos? If so, who is better to ally?

Take on Muscovy second. Snipe novgorod just to make sure Muscovy stays as Muscovy.

Don't ally the Mamluks. They are the other war which will cause your own war declaration.

Ally Austria. Austria is never in a direct war with the Ottomans so you don't need to worry about that. You could get called in an early Ottoman invasion of Genoa but that's ok. Hungary, Spain, Aragon Serbia, Byzantium and others are all options. You want to block the Ottomans from any christian expansion.

Pre Mamluk conquests you should be able to take on the Ottomans ? v 1.

 

[Sousuke123]

So I was already allied with both Mamluks and Austria, and the Ottos still crushed us. Are you saying I shouldn't ally Mamluks, and wait until they're in a separate war with the Ottos, so that all the Turkish armies are in the south, and I can siege Constantinople and Gallipoli to prevent Turkish troops coming back?

I didn't intentionally let Muscovy live - it's just that it had only been 80 years, and I seem to play slower/conquer slower than most of the pros here. I hadn't had time/manpower/money/AE to take all of Russia, and all of the Balkan minors, and the nomads, while also conquering the Teutons and Livonians before Denmark could get to them. Can most players conquer that quickly?

Also there's no way I'm converting to Sunni - I prefer to try and play vaguely realistically, and there's no way Poland would've converted to Sunni. I'd prefer to play them as Humanist Catholic (though other Christian denominations wouldn't be unreasonable.

Yes exactly, while they are down south DoW them. If you can get alliance with Venice and Genoa so they will block the straits and speed up progress.
If it comes to Muscovy you can castrate them while they are at war with Novgorod. Usually you go with vassalization Ryazan and Tver and feed them Muscovite high dev provinces so they won't be a threat anymore.
If it comes to Balkans you can do this fast if you get Moldova event and set province of interest in Wallachia - if you're lucky any claim will be already there.
For Teutons you don't need to do anything since Prussian confederacy event will fire up and you'll get all Teutonic land for free - just remember to transfer all provinces to Danzig so they will (almost) annex them.
If you want realistic then you have to go with Aristocratic to enforce serfdom and then give all your land to clergy since pre-partition PLC distribution of land was sth like that: 60% clergy, 30% szlachta and 10% crown. So game will be somewhat realistic . If you want stay Catholic then stay but for Poland it's completely useless religion even Orthodox is better.

 

[atwix]

I would do it ASAP, with no cb on byzantium in december 1444, followed by reconquest war on otto for their cores (before they get the guns of urban siee ability).

The faster you take them on, the better. The problem is getting tech 4 earlier then otto, which is heavily dependant on your ruler stats. It used to be easier, with the 200 points you could ask from estates.

Ideally you have allies with rulers that don't desire much inside ottomans. Like a hungary only desiring their core, after you vital interest everything else. Then just promise Hungary land and do a tag team destruction. Even a venice alliance might work in same manner. But this is all very dependant on initial alliance and rivalry patterns.

If you do this early, it will work with some skill. Some players always no cb byz to kneecap otto.

 

[holyvigil]

I would do it ASAP, with no cb on byzantium in december 1444, followed by reconquest war on otto for their cores (before they get the guns of urban siee ability).

The faster you take them on, the better. The problem is getting tech 4 earlier then otto, which is heavily dependant on your ruler stats. It used to be easier, with the 200 points you could ask from estates.

Ideally you have allies with rulers that don't desire much inside ottomans. Like a hungary only desiring their core, after you vital interest everything else. Then just promise Hungary land and do a tag team destruction. Even a venice alliance might work in same manner. But this is all very dependant on initial alliance and rivalry patterns.

If you do this early, it will work with some skill. Some players always no cb byz to kneecap otto.

This strategy results in an easier run and if you fail it's a faster restart.

 

[Deliberus]

Can you upload your save file?

 

[Stigandr]

This strategy results in an easier run and if you fail it's a faster restart. Wait for the Lithuania PU to fire if it hasn't already.

Doesn't the Lithuania PU usually fire after 1444? Oh do you mean No CB Byz, but don't attack Ottos without the Lithuania PU?

Can you upload your save file?

Haha I tried several more times, and each time the early game went against me (Moldavia going with Hungary rather than me, things like that) so my save file has been well and truly saved over.

I would do it ASAP, with no cb on byzantium in december 1444, followed by reconquest war on otto for their cores (before they get the guns of urban siee ability).

The faster you take them on, the better. The problem is getting tech 4 earlier then otto, which is heavily dependant on your ruler stats. It used to be easier, with the 200 points you could ask from estates.

Ideally you have allies with rulers that don't desire much inside ottomans. Like a hungary only desiring their core, after you vital interest everything else. Then just promise Hungary land and do a tag team destruction. Even a venice alliance might work in same manner. But this is all very dependant on initial alliance and rivalry patterns.

If you do this early, it will work with some skill. Some players always no cb byz to kneecap otto.

I'm intrigued by the idea of going after them straight away - I've been trying to build up a strong enough alliance to deter Ottos from declaring war on me until I get strong enough, but they seem to crush us anyway, so I'll try your early attack instead. Hungary usually seems to rival me, but if I can get a Hungary-Venice-Poland alliance, that could be really good.

Take on Muscovy second. Snipe novgorod just to make sure Muscovy stays as Muscovy.

Don't ally the Mamluks. They are the other war which will cause your own war declaration.

Ally Austria. Austria is never in a direct war with the Ottomans so you don't need to worry about that. You could get called in an early Ottoman invasion of Genoa but that's ok. Hungary, Spain, Aragon Serbia, Byzantium and others are all options. You want to block the Ottomans from any christian expansion.

Pre Mamluk conquests you should be able to take on the Ottomans ? v 1.

Sniping Novgorod could work - I noticed earlier that allying Novgorod immediately did stop Muscovy from attacking them. Though it return to bite me if I go after the Ottos immediately, as above, and then Muscovy takes advantage to go for Novgorod.

Last few games I've played Ottos never conquer Mamluks - at most they take a bit of Syria.

Yes exactly, while they are down south DoW them. If you can get alliance with Venice and Genoa so they will block the straits and speed up progress.
If it comes to Muscovy you can castrate them while they are at war with Novgorod. Usually you go with vassalization Ryazan and Tver and feed them Muscovite high dev provinces so they won't be a threat anymore.
If it comes to Balkans you can do this fast if you get Moldova event and set province of interest in Wallachia - if you're lucky any claim will be already there.
For Teutons you don't need to do anything since Prussian confederacy event will fire up and you'll get all Teutonic land for free - just remember to transfer all provinces to Danzig so they will (almost) annex them.
If you want realistic then you have to go with Aristocratic to enforce serfdom and then give all your land to clergy since pre-partition PLC distribution of land was sth like that: 60% clergy, 30% szlachta and 10% crown. So game will be somewhat realistic . If you want stay Catholic then stay but for Poland it's completely useless religion even Orthodox is better.

Ok, if I can't make the "No CB Byz" strat work, I'll try this.

Haha I actually went Aristocratic my first try - I reckon it actually works as an idea group for Poland. I'm not gonna railroad it, but I just want to go for things that Polish monarchs could have done, or attempted to do, or wanted to do - so I'll go absolutist and destroy the power of the Sejm, and I'll (try to) destroy the power of Rus and Ottos, but I won't convert away from Christianity, because I can't imagine a Polish king wanting to do that. Out of interest, why do you believe Orthodoxy to be better than Catholicism for Poland? Is it just the amount of ORthodox provinces you conquer from Russia? If so I was just thinking of going Humanism.

 

[Sousuke123]

Doesn't the Lithuania PU usually fire after 1444? Oh do you mean No CB Byz, but don't attack Ottos without the Lithuania PU?



Haha I tried several more times, and each time the early game went against me (Moldavia going with Hungary rather than me, things like that) so my save file has been well and truly saved over.



I'm intrigued by the idea of going after them straight away - I've been trying to build up a strong enough alliance to deter Ottos from declaring war on me until I get strong enough, but they seem to crush us anyway, so I'll try your early attack instead. Hungary usually seems to rival me, but if I can get a Hungary-Venice-Poland alliance, that could be really good.



Sniping Novgorod could work - I noticed earlier that allying Novgorod immediately did stop Muscovy from attacking them. Though it return to bite me if I go after the Ottos immediately, as above, and then Muscovy takes advantage to go for Novgorod.

Last few games I've played Ottos never conquer Mamluks - at most they take a bit of Syria.



Ok, if I can't make the "No CB Byz" strat work, I'll try this.

Haha I actually went Aristocratic my first try - I reckon it actually works as an idea group for Poland. I'm not gonna railroad it, but I just want to go for things that Polish monarchs could have done, or attempted to do, or wanted to do - so I'll go absolutist and destroy the power of the Sejm, and I'll (try to) destroy the power of Rus and Ottos, but I won't convert away from Christianity, because I can't imagine a Polish king wanting to do that. Out of interest, why do you believe Orthodoxy to be better than Catholicism for Poland? Is it just the amount of ORthodox provinces you conquer from Russia? If so I was just thinking of going Humanism.

Orthodox is better simply thanks to icons and PA. Catholicism is good only to prevent trolling form DotF while doing Polish missions. Once you get Hungary and Bohemia in PUs. You won't be attacking any Catholic nations in the game so this religion is useless after this. Maybe going muslim is not sth that kings would do. But it's all about fun.

 

[Damedius]

You have two choices either no CB early or wait till they fall off.

Attacking them in between means watching them take on armies twice their size even with terrain disadvantage. Even if you can get more armies against them in war, their armies perform much better than yours.

Western armies are weak until tech 14 which makes Austria a paper tiger. So while they might prevent the Ottomans from attacking you, they are useless as an early game ally in a war against the Ottomans since their armies will get crushed.

 

[MatthewP]

Ottomans are tough in the early 16th century. If you’re going to beat them it’ll be by getting to Constantinople while their armies are away. Once you hold the strait you should be ok. Otherwise you can try to work your way to a minor victory by sniping their smaller armies with your larger ones and wearing them down.

if that doesn’t work, just wait and keep getting stronger. They get weaker relative to size as the game goes on, a decent commonwealth with military ideas can take them on without much trouble. Especially if they don’t conquer Egypt.

 

[Stigandr]

Thanks all for the suggestions! I tried No CBing Byz and then using their claims while the Otto force were attacking Dulkadir. This was before either of us had got to Miltech 4. But even though Constantinople was owned by my new vassal, and I had an army in Gallipoli sieging it down, the Ottos casually strolled over to Const and then annhilated my army in Gallipoli. So I'm not clear on what needs to be done to prevent their crossing. As Poland has no coastal provinces to begin with, I can't construct a navy, so presumably I'm reliant on the luck of having the Moldavian and Byzantine navies act sensibly to stop a Turkish crossing?

A few of you have mentioned waiting until Otto military falls off - when would you say their armies become less overpowering?

 

[Sousuke123]

If you No CB Byzzies then get alliance beforehand and wait for Ottos to DoW them as well so you can call your allies in defensive war.

To prevent crossing you need Gallipoli and fleet. You can get fleet if you conquer Crimea, Theodoro etc, using Moldovan or Lithuanian claims and getting alliance with Venice and/or Genoa. You want your own fleet to use naval barrage if you attack them before tech 7.

 

[iClipse]

I suggest taking a look at the wiki: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units for optimal timing in attacking them. Basically, they have super powerful troops from tech 12-15 (they're also stronger techs 5-11, just less so). Afterwards it gets better.

If you plan on 1v1ing them, take a look at the techs to find a window to do so. You can always overwhelm them with numbers of course, but that's easier said than done. Want to do it with quality? As Poland wait with until mil tech 19 and you can crush them.

 

[holyvigil]

Thanks all for the suggestions! I tried No CBing Byz and then using their claims while the Otto force were attacking Dulkadir. This was before either of us had got to Miltech 4. But even though Constantinople was owned by my new vassal, and I had an army in Gallipoli sieging it down, the Ottos casually strolled over to Const and then annhilated my army in Gallipoli. So I'm not clear on what needs to be done to prevent their crossing. As Poland has no coastal provinces to begin with, I can't construct a navy, so presumably I'm reliant on the luck of having the Moldavian and Byzantine navies act sensibly to stop a Turkish crossing?

A few of you have mentioned waiting until Otto military falls off - when would you say their armies become less overpowering?

In my no cbs I do not prevent the strait crossing I just kill their armies.

 

[Stigandr]

If you No CB Byzzies then get alliance beforehand and wait for Ottos to DoW them as well so you can call your allies in defensive war.

To prevent crossing you need Gallipoli and fleet. You can get fleet if you conquer Crimea, Theodoro etc, using Moldovan or Lithuanian claims and getting alliance with Venice and/or Genoa. You want your own fleet to use naval barrage if you attack them before tech 7.

I've tried this a few times, (without Crimea) and the Ottos still cross and wreck me. Reckon I'll just avoid war with them until Miltech 19, and focus on destroying Russia instead.

I suggest taking a look at the wiki: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units for optimal timing in attacking them. Basically, they have super powerful troops from tech 12-15 (they're also stronger techs 5-11, just less so). Afterwards it gets better.

If you plan on 1v1ing them, take a look at the techs to find a window to do so. You can always overwhelm them with numbers of course, but that's easier said than done. Want to do it with quality? As Poland wait with until mil tech 19 and you can crush them.

This is really helpful, thanks for sharing. Looks like Eastern infantry doesn't compare to Anatolian until Miltech 14, and cavalry not until Miltech 19. Seems like there's no point going after Ottos until 19 (I see your point about numbers, but the Ottos generally seem to have way more troops than me early on, and given how useless many AI allies are... May as well just wait)

In my no cbs I do not prevent the strait crossing I just kill their armies.

Haha this is the problem I'm having, their armies absolutely wreck mine no matter what I try. :-D

 

[Jomini]

Poland has a much easier time of killing the Ottomans once you have the full national idea set in. Most of Poland's military ideas are in the back half of the national idea set while the Ottomans get +5% discipline, +20% manpower recovery with the first idea set while Poland does not start hitting any military ideas until you are into the second idea set. Couple that with the advantages of being Muslim with piety giving either some morale boost or more manpower and even without the unit imbalance things are hard. This can be better or worse depending on when you stack your mission rewards and when the Ottos take theirs.

Waiting a bit until you get better tech, fill out your late national ideas, possibly taking a military idea or two is a lot better. Taking your rewards for Breaking the Rus and Building to Force Limit right at the start of the war can also go a long ways. Tactically, you want to catch the Ottos on the flat with a mass of Cavalry and snipe anything that is below combat width repeatedly.

Where the Ottos are weakest is in the naval game. Alliances with Venice and Genoa can go a long way towards beating their fleet. It also provides you with a number of potential traps for the Ottoman army (Corfu, Scio, Negroponte, etc.) and though it is hinky, you can often decimate the Ottomans while their army bleeds down in Scio or something. The AI is terrible at the naval game and the Ottomans have few bonuses there.