Poland should start with TKS/Light Tank I researched in 1936 start.

[AleksBoi.]

In the current build Poland in 1936 starts with the 1918 Renault FT tech. I do know that the game is not 100% realistic due to balancing issues and so on and that insignificant numbers of something like 20 tanks in 1936 wouldn't be represented in the game.

But the fact is that in 1936 Poland already had produced 190 TKS with further 90 in 1936 for a total of 280 (6 were sold to Estonia in 1934 leaving Poland with 274) at the end of its production cycle. Represented by the 1934 TKS/Light Tank I. Poland also produced around 300 TK-3's (Production years 1931-1933).

Production of TKS's during the years 1934-1936
1933 - 20 units
1934 - 50 units
1935 - 120 units
1936 - 90 units (Produced in 1936).​

In 1933 Poland bought 38 Vickers Mk.E tanks from Britain. (Insignificant number/would be hard to represent)

In 1934 first Prototype of 7TP tank was made and it entered production in 1935 ending in 1939 (For obvious reasons). The first series had two MG turrets. 24 produced. In October 1936 the production of single turret 7TP tanks begun and until 1938 (Production halted was to be renewed), 108 Single Turret 7TP tanks were produced.

in 1936 Poland also had 174 FT-17 Tanks (112 left after the Polish-Bolshevik(1919-1921) war, 36 more bought and 27 more built out of spare parts). They were slightly modernized and after 1936 80 of them were sold.

Poland in 1936 begins with no armored forces at all, but Romania (72 FT-17) and Yugoslavia (120 FT-17) do. On top of which Romania in 1936 also has R1/Light Tank I researched. Which makes me wonder how and why while Poland starts with none ?

With information above I do think that Poland should start 1936 with:
- 1934 TKS/Light Tank I tech researched.
-174 (1918) FT-17 with (1 reliability and 1 engine) upgrades.
-300 (1934) TK-3 (Regular variant of TKS/Light Tank I).
-194 (1934) TKS with (1 armor, 1 reliability and 1 engine) upgrades.
-one or two of the starting nine factories producing TKS's with full 50% production efficiency.

This would give Poland 668 Light Tanks of 3 varieties to start with in 1936.

Poland didn't have regular tank divisions in '36 and TK-3 and TKS were used as recon with mobile units. To represent that I would spread the 494 TK-3's and TKS's between the 10 cavalry brigades Poland starts with in '36 and throw the 174 FT-17 into 3x Armored units (1 Light Tank Battalion only)(Could probably round up the number of FT-17 to 180).

Would it let Poland overpower Germany (AI vs AI) ?
- Not at all giving the production output of these two. Maybe increase it's life span by a week or two at most since the 174 or 180 FT-17 will be outdated pretty badly to German Panzer II's and III's even if the Polish AI was to keep on producing the TKS tanks It would never out produce German AI. Meaning that there would be no change to historical play troughs.

Would it break MP ?
- I don't think so, people hardly ever play as Poland in a pure PvP multiplayer session due to German and Soviet players. However sometimes they can ally to either of them which I don't think would change much either.

Why not start with 1936 7TP/Light Tank II as well ?
- Because the single turret series didn't enter production until October '36 which gives plenty time to research it if one wishes to do so.


sources:
- http://derela.republika.pl/tk.htm
- http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2017/01/tk-3-and-tks-polands-armoured.html
- http://derela.republika.pl/en/ft17.htm
- And of course Wikipedia.

 

[Robosoldier1]

To be fair most if not all the major powers at this time had what we know as light tank 2s, except for the Italians and the Americans. Yet several of those major powers don't have them researched like Japan (ha-go) and the soviets (BT7). Overall the purpose of restricting technology to some nations despite them actually having it is more a factor of balance and to extend the life of the research trees. I'm not saying it isn't dumb but it has a purpose to it. Why don't the french have shovels (engineer company), or the Greeks and turks with Artillery as a whole, or the US trucks? Again balance.

 

[Christopholes]

Tank tech accuracy in the '36 start is awful, Poland, France, Belgium, Iraq, Siam, the UK, Mexico, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Iran at the very least are all missing tank techs. Balance should be largely irrelevant in a historical game, this isn't a competitive MP game. France already surrenders to quickly, they did fight on a bit longer after Paris fell for example. The '39 start is more accurate in some places and less in others, at least pre WTT for example Japan doesn't even have level 1 anti air researched, while Canada is missing the rest of the commonwealth's tank tech. The Raj's 1936 air tech actually is impossible within the rules of the tech tree.

 

[AleksBoi.]

To be fair most if not all the major powers at this time had what we know as light tank 2s, except for the Italians and the Americans. Yet several of those major powers don't have them researched like Japan (ha-go) and the soviets (BT7). Overall the purpose of restricting technology to some nations despite them actually having it is more a factor of balance and to extend the life of the research trees. I'm not saying it isn't dumb but it has a purpose to it. Why don't the french have shovels (engineer company), or the Greeks and turks with Artillery as a whole, or the US trucks? Again balance.

I agree with the balancing fact. But the Ha-Go didn't enter production until 1936 and Japan can quickly rush for a 5th research slot so I can see why that is the way it is. With the SU which starts with about 3,000 T26's I can see why they're a put a tech behind. All divisions can entrench with or without engineers so they technically do have shovels, but yes I agree I mean they have the Maginot line to balance it out I think and capability to reinforce their entire border with forts if they wish and an easy 4th research slot. I do not understand the thinking behind Greece and Turkey or other minor's that had somewhat of a standing army not to have artillery or support equipment researched. And US didn't actually start mass producing military trucks until 1940's and have the ability to go for 6 research slots.

 

[Christopholes]

Because, like EU4, we're probably going to see the gaps filled in over time, compare the Raj's tech being a clone of Britain on release to now

 

[billcorr]

Tank tech accuracy in the '36 start is awful, Poland, France, Belgium, Iraq, Siam, the UK, Mexico, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Iran at the very least are all missing tank techs.

Very interesting.

Expanding this topic of "1936 tank tech" into a separate thread may generate some discussion.

(or maybe not...the whole conversation could swerve erratically into a discussion of "historically accurate tank tech? what? We need to fix A.I. first." )

 

[T Knight]

Should have Light Tank II researched as well (7TP was started to be produced in 1935)

 

[Edungeon]

I agree with this! Put in the suggestion forum, it probably has more chance of being seen by a dev

 

[AleksBoi.]

Should have Light Tank II researched as well (7TP was started to be produced in 1935)

I understand what you mean and agree but in the terms of the game it's impossible I think.

As I mentioned Poland did begin the production of 7TP tanks in 1935 but they were the first series which were twin turret mg's.
While single turret 2nd/3rd series (don't remember clearly) 7TP's armed with Bofors wz. 36 didn't come into production until October of '36 mainly due to the Tank Version of the gun didn't arrive until sometime in 1936.

It feels like these two are different tanks sharing the same body. And there's just no way to represent the twin turret 7TP in the game as of now.

It cannot be represented as a different xp variant like with the TK-3 and TKS (as variants of the TKS) the latter is an upgraded version of the TK-3 (2mm thicker armor, better engine and suspension) which can be shown with the xp variant system in the game.

If it was available in to have the 7TP twin turret to research as the LT2 and have maybe the 7TP single turret as the tank destoyer variant I would agree but sadly this is not the case.

 

[billcorr]

For comparison, here is Afghanistan's 1936 starting tank research:

Given the evidence presented in the original post, it stands to reason that Poland should start with 1934 tank technology already researched.

(anyone have insights why Afghanistan is awarded a starting light tank research head start? Perhaps there is a good reason. Afghanistan's light tank head start would help explain why Afghanistan seems to be always producing light tanks at great expense).

 

[Coffin_Princess]

Poland had also taken out more German tanks and in general more equipment than any other force until the Soviets were brought into the war. Would like to see this represent with another infantry tech maybe something like (1% hard attack for every x soft) (something the UK, and Poland should start with) I would imagine it would be a necessary requirement for the larger hard buff later down the tree. (or a NF or something)

Realistically they had anti-tank rifles (anti-material) one of the more well built ones if i remember. Once Poland had fallen those captured guns helped the development of similar rifles in Germany, Italy. And the new and improved model in the Soviet Union.

To make it more balanced and improved the historical/tactical feel, once Poland capitulates Germany and their allies should get a 50% inf boost or maybe one specifically for infantry tech anti-tank 1942. Soviets too if they accept molotov-ribbentrop.

 

[myzael]

Poland had also taken out more German tanks and in general more equipment than any other force until the Soviets were brought into the war. Would like to see this represent with another infantry tech maybe something like (1% hard attack for every x soft) (something the UK, and Poland should start with) I would imagine it would be a necessary requirement for the larger hard buff later down the tree. (or a NF or something)

Realistically they had anti-tank rifles (anti-material) one of the more well built ones if i remember. Once Poland had fallen those captured guns helped the development of similar rifles in Germany, Italy. And the new and improved model in the Soviet Union.

To make it more balanced and improved the historical/tactical feel, once Poland capitulates Germany and their allies should get a 50% inf boost or maybe one specifically for infantry tech anti-tank 1942. Soviets too if they accept molotov-ribbentrop.

Easiest to model this would be to give ahead of time bonus for infantry AP weapons tech.

 

[xMer]

Even Polish Anti-Tank infantry tech I is named by AT Rifle developed in 1935
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle
which was capable to injure/kill crew of pz.I, pz.II pz.III and even pz.IV(except late versions). considering way tech tree look like it would be best to make Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons I tech researched for Poland in 1936.

 

[Christopholes]

In terms of Afghanistan I believe it is because there is a unconfirmed purchase of some T-26s in 1935, and iirc at one point they tried to order some Swedish light tanks. They are confirmed to have had a handful of FTs and some US made tractor tanks w/ 37mm guns.

 

[Christopholes]

For the curious about interwar tank usage, look up the Chaco War, which was notable enough to be parodied in Tintin.

 

[billcorr]

For the curious about interwar tank usage, look up the Chaco War, which was notable enough to be parodied in Tintin.

Tanks in TinTin ? That would be cool.

I was hoping to find tanks in those graphic novels.

AFAIK, Tanks were not documented in the TinTin adventure that took place during the Chaco War (1932 - 1935).

Artillery is depicted in TinTin's "The Broken Ear" :

Interesting reference to the Chaco War.
One learns something new every day.

Thanks!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Very interesting.

Expanding this topic of "1936 tank tech" into a separate thread may generate some discussion.

(or maybe not...the whole conversation could swerve erratically into a discussion of "historically accurate tank tech? what? We need to fix A.I. first." )

Altering who starts with what technology is much, much easier than improving AI w/o breaking anything, and even AI is lower priority than mechanics that are broken for everybody in every game.

I also don't buy the balance rationale for why a nation like Bolivia or Siam can't have tanks, especially given their industry. They're going to tip the outcome of WW2 ? Belgium doesn't know what WW1 artillery is, for balance purposes because it would slow Germany down too much? It's hard to just accept that there's actually a consistent semblance of applied balancing rationale here, especially with regards to nations that don't routinely even participate in the war. Seems more arbitrary to me.

 

[STABBY5]

If we are opening this can of worms, America doesn't even have trucks researched. Honestly so many counties don't remember what trucks are from the first world war. Or field hospitals. or MP. Really I could keep going but its completely silly.

 

[T Knight]

I understand what you mean and agree but in the terms of the game it's impossible I think.

As I mentioned Poland did begin the production of 7TP tanks in 1935 but they were the first series which were twin turret mg's.
While single turret 2nd/3rd series (don't remember clearly) 7TP's armed with Bofors wz. 36 didn't come into production until October of '36 mainly due to the Tank Version of the gun didn't arrive until sometime in 1936.

It feels like these two are different tanks sharing the same body. And there's just no way to represent the twin turret 7TP in the game as of now.

It cannot be represented as a different xp variant like with the TK-3 and TKS (as variants of the TKS) the latter is an upgraded version of the TK-3 (2mm thicker armor, better engine and suspension) which can be shown with the xp variant system in the game.

If it was available in to have the 7TP twin turret to research as the LT2 and have maybe the 7TP single turret as the tank destoyer variant I would agree but sadly this is not the case.
View attachment 342475
View attachment 342477

The 7TP jw
“jw” stands for “jednowieżowy” (single-turret). This version was studied since 1934 and was to be the main 7TP production type. Development of a working prototype was slowed down due to issues with the main turret and spanned the years 1934-1936. At least six options were considered, including the Czech 47 mm (1.85 in) “Bullet gun”, the 55 mm (2.15 in) ZS, 47 mm (1.85 in) Rogla, 40 mm (1.57 in) L/55, Vickers AT 40 mm (1.57 in) and a licensed 37 mm (1.46 in) Bofors. Requirements asked for compact size, high rate of fire, the ability to penetrate standard armor for the time (up to 30 mm/1.18 in) and, most importantly, reliability. After eliminating the other options, the Swedish 37 mm (1.46 in) Bofors was chosen. After the terms of the contract were settled, Bofors not only provided the gun, but also the turret and all its equipment.

Work started in December 1935 and by November 1936 the first complete turret was delivered.

...From Tank Encyclopedia. Tank tech II should be available, no equipment should be in inventory, low industrial capacity will keep tank numbers low when 1939 rolls around.

 

[CrazyZombie]

Let's start with the fact that tech tree for armor is awful by itself.
So, it isn't very useful to move techs to researched and vice versa, while uch measures anyway don't make situation in general better.