Poland/Lithuania questions...

[DSYoungEsq]

In this way you can say that USA is not one country.

Quite incorrect. The states do not have individual economies, currencies, armies, etc. They do have seperate legal systems, but they also have an over-arching federal system.

The USA under the Articles of Confederation from 1781 to 1789 might be a better analogy, especially since it was almost as impotent a central government.

 

[unmerged(35175)]

Quite incorrect. The states do not have individual economies, currencies, armies, etc.

Currency was the same in Poland and Lithuania after 1569.
They had the same king, the same parliament, the same currency, the same law, the same foreign and military policy. Sounds like one country for me. This united country was called "Rzeczpospolita"

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Currency was the same in Poland and Lithuania after 1569.
They had the same king, the same parliament, the same currency, the same law, the same foreign and military policy. Sounds like one country for me. This united country was called "Rzeczpospolita"

They did NOT have the same "law." There was a seperate system for Lithuania than from Poland. This doesn't even take into account the other "member" constituencies of the Commonwealth.

Indeed, the fact there was a seperate law system, with no over-arching federal control, would be the best argument as to why they were still different entities. However, I never said they aren't one "country." Still, a Commonwealth with individual members bound together for foreign policy purposes is always difficult to quantify.

I assure you; if you assert to a Lithuanian that the Grand-Dukedom was not a seperate entity after the "Union" of Lublin, he will be quite upset.

 

[unmerged(35175)]

They did NOT have the same "law." There was a seperate system for Lithuania than from Poland. This doesn't even take into account the other "member" constituencies of the Commonwealth.

I just checked few historical books and can tell that they DID have the same "law".

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Whereas my investigations show otherwise.

Try, for example, searching for "Lithuanian Statutes" which were the codification of Lithuanian law starting in the early 16th Century, and which remained in effect even after the "Republic of Both Nations" was formed.

 

[unmerged(35175)]

So what were the resolutions of union in 1569?

 

[DSYoungEsq]

So what were the resolutions of union in 1569?

The main effects of the establishment of the Republic of Two Nations were a) the crown was personally unified, b) the Sejm was unified, with only limited participation by Lithuanian delegates (compared in number to Polish delegates, similar to the way the British Parliament effectively neutralized Scottish political power when the English and Scots Parliaments were combined), and c) Lithuanian culture was gradually Polonized through such acts as the adoption of Polish as the official language of the Republic. Of course, the fact that the Commonwealth had a unified approach to foreign policy meant from a practical standpoint that most other nations could treat it as a unified entity most of the time.

In short, it represents a unique solution to the issue of different cultures seeking the security of confederation.

In the game, the only arguable incorrect effect of the event which annexes Lithuania to Poland would be the conversion of Poland to the Orthodox tech group. If anything, Lithuania was gradually westernized, rather than the opposite occurring.

 

[Arturro]

I just checked few historical books and can tell that they DID have the same "law".

I'm a lawyer, history of law have been part of my education. Poland and Lithuania have had different law, as well as Prussia and Inflants. Of course some "polish" laws hae been adopted by Lithuania etc. But that wasn't one law system.

 

[unmerged(334)]

Ok few more point to make this conversation even more complicated.

Poland and Lithuania after the union had the same head of state (just like USA states).
Poland and Lithuania had the same currency. (just like USA states).
They had diffrent Law and tax system (just like USA states).
They had seprate army that act as one (just like USA states in war of independence)
So unless we consider USA as a NOT a country then Poland-Lithuania was one state.

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Ok few more point to make this conversation even more complicated.

Poland and Lithuania after the union had the same head of state (just like USA states).
Poland and Lithuania had the same currency. (just like USA states).
They had diffrent Law and tax system (just like USA states).
They had seprate army that act as one (just like USA states in war of independence)
So unless we consider USA as a NOT a country then Poland-Lithuania was one state.

Um, Pomerania Prince, if you look up a few posts, you'll note that I made the comparison to the "United States" during the period of the Articles of Confederation previously. During the American Revolution, the only two things that made us a "united" nation were the merging of military command into one supreme leader, and the attempt to negotiate peace/foreign relations as a unified whole. It is incorrect to say that the United States of 1776 to 1789 had a unified currency system, and there really was no official "head of state" under the Articles of Confederacy, which is part of the problem that plagued the nascent nation.

After the adoption of the Constitution of 1787, things changed. But one of the important changes that was made was that state legal systems were subordinated to a over-arching federal system of law, which was not true of the Republic of Two Nations. Thus, although Louisiana had a somewhat different legal system (left over from Napoleonic code), non-residents could avoid that system in most cases by using the federal system instead. As to the other states, although seperate in jurisdiction, their common law was virtually identical, given that they all started from English common law. And once the 1787 Constitution was in place, the military structure was totally changed, removing that similarity to the Republic of Two Nations.

This thread's hijack started when someone pointed out that Poland and Lithuania were technically only one nation during a brief period. That remains a correct assertion. The very name of the commonwealth, which translates as "The Republic of Two Nations" indicates that Poland and Lithuania understood that Lithuania was still a somewhat seperate entity, at least from a legalistic point of view. My point all along has been to make clear that, while not exactly two nations, it wasn't exactly one nation, either. For purposes of the game EU2, however, it can be modeled as one nation much more effectively.

 

[unmerged(28147)]

For all practical purposes in the time period specified Poland and Lithuania were a single country. Some will argue against that and some will argue for it, but for all practical and fun purposes they were one country.

 

[unmerged(35175)]

The main effects of the establishment of the Republic of Two Nations were a) the crown was personally unified, b) the Sejm was unified, with only limited participation by Lithuanian delegates (compared in number to Polish delegates, similar to the way the British Parliament effectively neutralized Scottish political power when the English and Scots Parliaments were combined), and c) Lithuanian culture was gradually Polonized through such acts as the adoption of Polish as the official language of the Republic. Of course, the fact that the Commonwealth had a unified approach to foreign policy meant from a practical standpoint that most other nations could treat it as a unified entity most of the time.

d) unified currency
e) Polish and Lithuanian nobility had the same rights and privileges (this is why I thought that they had the same law)
f) one custom system
...

 

[unmerged(25696)]

1) European Union has one Parliament
2) EU has one 'monarch' (Council of Ministers, or the Commission depending on your views on it)
3) law systems of all members are getting closer (much more than Polish-Lithuanian laws some centuries ago)
4) I doubt the armies of any one member would oppose the army of another one, and as most are members of NATO they're tied to each other should one of them be attacked
5) same currency for half of the members (and planning to expand this to the others, should they ever meet the prerequisites)

Does it mean we Europeans form one country ? Not yet (and it'll take long, long years, sadly enough). So I don't think Poland and Lithuania should be considered as one country.

 

[Kasperus]

e) Polish and Lithuanian nobility had the same rights and privileges (this is why I thought that they had the same law)
...

That does (sort of) mean it indeed, they had the same 'state law' (as far as you can define something like a state law in a pre-modern country, which means laws passed by the Seym more or less applied to the whole country, unless stated otherwise). As most pre-modern states they didn't have a single law in more local matters, but here laws varied from town to town and from province to province even (so had Masovia for example its own separate law till long after 1569, while still being a part of the Polish crown). They also had no common legal law (jurisdiction), which wasn't uncommon either as not many countries did have a single juridictionary system by that time either.

Which brings me to a remark that many of the actual comparisons presented here are irrelevant - comparing a premodern country like Poland-Lithuania with constitutionalist, modern states or other political entities (going as ridiculously far as to comparing it to the EU, which btw according to various American citizens who happen to post on certain familiar boards can be actually considered a 'country' already) is like comparing apples with nonexisting energy blobs or something even less apple-alike I cannot think of right now... Try better to search for differences and comparisons with complex contemporary 'states' like HRE, Hapsburg monarchy, Castilla-Aragon, French monarchy and then decide how to define a state in that period and how you like to see the P-L relation in that...