Poland-Lithuania cannot into DD?

[Zubrowka]

Also for the whole period PLC stance was a very important factor in the Hab-Ottoman struggle. Lack of engaging representation of the whole elective shenanigans and the magnate/cossack factor is what I'm complaining about.

I think the appropriate treatment here is the events system. You don't need to mirror the actual government system the PLC had; you just need to abstract its effects into banes and boons and unique challenges that pop up under certain conditions. I'm sure Paradox will get that much right, even if it is a "tier 2" country by their rank of priorities. If Paradox is still thinking this stuff through, I have a couple suggestions for these events (positive and negative):

1. Grain Pays! The grain trade through the Hanseatic league is providing a boon to our whole economy! Ever richer nobles are reaping what they sow with great profits and even the peasants are feeling some small benefits.
- Maybe a small temp. redux to revolt risk
- Maybe some tax base gains or an income modifier that is temporary

2. Grain Doesn't Pay! The grain trade has begun to collapse! The wealthiest nobles, the magnates, are working their peasants to the bone for ever smaller increases in yields, but this only lowers the already plummeting price of grain.
- perhaps a redux in income modifier
- an increase in revolt risk that requires some deliberate counteraction by the player to overcome (i.e. taking some national ideas that promote equality)

3. Cossack Skirmishes
- relations penalty with a Muslim religion neighbor country (probably Turkey)

4. Cossacks Demand Privileges
- you can decide to increase the Cossack registry and face a noble revolt, or
- you can refuse the Cossacks and face their revolt in Ukraine

Ideas abound for such a rich history. I hope Paradox has some fun with it, so we can too.

 

[unmerged(415869)]

PLC gets little attention, because people tend to look through the lenses of XVIII century. They assume that, since Poland ended up partitioned and humiliated then it was probably of little importance in centuries before. And on the other hand: Russia's rise to prominence causes them to overestimate its power in times before Peter the Great.

As a side note - Commonwealth's political system wasn't that unique. It relied on mechanisms and institutions that weren't unknown in Europe in given period.

De jure PLC was an elective monarchy even during the times of Jagiellons, but after the last one died it turned into a much more unique entity.
It shows that the formal institutions are overestimated.

I'd say that the market condition for PLC resources (wheat, timber, ores) were much more important than the legal base.

This also reminds me of another factor that is totally not represented - what about the internal colonization of the steppes?

I think the appropriate treatment here is the events system. You don't need to mirror the actual government system the PLC had; you just need to abstract its effects into banes and boons and unique challenges that pop up under certain conditions. I'm sure Paradox will get that much right, even if it is a "tier 2" country by their rank of priorities. If Paradox is still thinking this stuff through, I have a couple suggestions for these events (positive and negative):
[..]
Ideas abound for such a rich history. I hope Paradox has some fun with it, so we can too.

Events like this are really not enough. And surely 2tier countries will get some events, but this is a stop-gap.
How are you going to represent the Hapsburg attempts at PLC throne? Or Zamoysky's Moldavian intervention? Sigismund Vasus private war for Swedish throne? That's just a single decade.
You can just make an arbitrary event of course. But there is no way to tie it to what's happening in the current game in a reasonable way.

 

[Zubrowka]

You can just make an arbitrary event of course. But there is no way to tie it to what's happening in the current game in a reasonable way.

What? Yes you can. You set conditions to trigger the likelihood of the event. This won't translate into a perfectly scripted replication of history as it was, but that's not the point of the game either. To each his own.

 

[unmerged(553851)]

It was the biggest neighbour of HRE and Ottomans. Good luck arguing that just having a static blob instead doesn't make the game less engaging for them.

That's just the thing though. After Poland inherited Lithuania, it was ruled by a succession of ineffective kings that made PLC, quite literally, a "static blob" for the latter half of the game, defined by political inactivity. Sure, it was kept down by its internal struggles and power structure, which can be interesting in itself, but to outsiders like Prussia and Russia, it was just a bunch of squabbling nobles and weak rulers that happened to sit on a large chunk of land. PLC was "strategic" in the sense that it was an easy target (more land = more power) for its more dynamic neighbors, just like Bosnia was strategic between Habsburgs and Ottomans despite being a virtual no-mans land in the 18th century. Around that time too, PLC even ceased being taken seriously as a political entity; it was a matter of when, not if, their state would collapse and others could jump in. The only reason I think it's even tier 2, tbh, is 1. is because it was too large to ignore and 2. as a relatively large state, a player has a large potential to doing interesting things and change history. But as for Dynamic Historical Events, there really isn't much to speak of, as PLC was decidedly un-dynamic during the EU4 time period.

EDIT: After I posted this, I realized Poland actually did have kind of an exciting early game, from 1444-1640, like invading Russia and such. But aside from that, it's achievements are still underwhelming compared to other similarly-sized states. Poland and PLC seemed content with just trying to vassalize/PU everything, from Prussia to Livonia to Muscovy, never outright conquest or integration. After that, all of its foreign policy was almost entirely reactionary to the endeavors of other states, like the Battle of Vienna or the Great Northern War. So I suppose some DHE's could be implemented along those lines to encourage the player to change history up a bit

 

[nalivayko]

Calm down. There's no need to lose your temper because you got an answer other than what you wanted to hear. I'm sorry if PI's failure to recognize the historical greatness of Poland/Serbia/Bosnia/Albania/Byzantium has frustrated you but that's hardly my fault.

Compared to Austria, the Ottomans, France and others, Poland-Lithuania just isn't that important to this time period. I do not blame the developers one bit for not giving it special mechanics as if it were as important as the HRE or the Papacy.

I've said some things about Poland before (which I am not proud of), but to say that PL is not as important as Austria or the Ottomans? Where would be Austria w/o Poland? And how far would the Ottomans spread if it wasn't for Poland. I concede that France is easily #1 or #2 in EU time-frame, but that is not the reason to look down upon the Commonwealth (still can't get over the fact it's 2nd tier).

 

[unmerged(612669)]

That's just the thing though. After Poland inherited Lithuania, it was ruled by a succession of ineffective kings that made PLC, quite literally, a "static blob" for the latter half of the game, defined by political inactivity. Sure, it was kept down by its internal struggles and power structure, which can be interesting in itself, but to outsiders like Prussia and Russia, it was just a bunch of squabbling nobles and weak rulers that happened to sit on a large chunk of land. PLC was "strategic" in the sense that it was an easy target (more land = more power) for its more dynamic neighbors, just like Bosnia was strategic between Habsburgs and Ottomans despite being a virtual no-mans land in the 18th century. Around that time too, PLC even ceased being taken seriously as a political entity; it was a matter of when, not if, their state would collapse and others could jump in. The only reason I think it's even tier 2, tbh, is 1. is because it was too large to ignore and 2. as a relatively large state, a player has a large potential to doing interesting things and change history. But as for Dynamic Historical Events, there really isn't much to speak of, as PLC was decidedly un-dynamic during the EU4 time period.

EDIT: After I posted this, I realized Poland actually did have kind of an exciting early game, from 1444-1640, like invading Russia and such. But aside from that, it's achievements are still underwhelming compared to other similarly-sized states. Poland and PLC seemed content with just trying to vassalize/PU everything, from Prussia to Livonia to Muscovy, never outright conquest or integration. After that, all of its foreign policy was almost entirely reactionary to the endeavors of other states, like the Battle of Vienna or the Great Northern War. So I suppose some DHE's could be implemented along those lines to encourage the player to change history up a bit

It has been a long time since I posted because I realized I was posting too much but 1399-1640 is a long time for importance in a game starting in the Rennaisance. In comparison Venice was also losing it's empire in the 17th century, Genoa felt the wrath of the Italian Wars earlier, Denmark took some significant beatings as well but endured much better then PLC.

I also think people here get very offended quickly at being reminded that Poland-Lithuania was at one point one of the great power. Ironically if Poland was just a pushover that means fighting it is no great achievement. One thread featured a developer getting yelled at for comparing the power of Polish Hussars to the Tiger Tank.

Also I would argue that Poland-Lithuania was taken very seriously, so that when a nationalist threat rose within called the Bar Confederation Russia nipped it in the bud, and that when the American Revolution led to radical (for the time) ideas being adopted the second partition happened; and Kosciuzko not giving up led to the nation's existence ending.

The behavior being looked for is completely disrespected, hated, disregarded, and destroyed by enemies with proper diplomatic ties and a functional government.

On the bright side Polish and German Nationalists could argue who had the worst political system :laugh:

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

You got both, deservingly.

For someone who is already on probation, it might be better to be a lot less rude!

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Don't feed the trolls

Don't call someone a troll just because he sees things differently.

 

[stilgarpl]

I'm tired. I'm veteran of 'EU4 tiers' thread. I posted link to whole thread consisting of 'PLC mechanics suggestions' earlier, which stilgarpl ignored. His posts suggest utter cluelessness about topic, and he just trolls jboch back.

I read that thread and found your ideas too complicated while adding nothing to the depth of the game, that's why I didn't wrote about them. It's not worth developers time to implement it.
I don't troll anyone, I just present my opinion that Poland in the second half of the game wasn't important player on the international scene and was just a quickly collapsing "empire". Neither internal conflicts nor elective monarchy was unique to it, so it don't need unique mechanic.
The attitude of "Poland is the best and should be on top of tier zero..." you two represent is why Poles are treated like bunch of nationalistic whiners by some of the users.

I think that they are purposefully delaying this DD to troll some Polish posters. Their dislike towards them, and eagerness of mods/admins to flag any of them as nationalist trolls at a first, tiny notice is well known, so tread carefully.

Besides, as with 'tiers' thread discussion - it's Swedish game not Polish, so it's being made with different perspective in mind. They have Paradox, we have CDProject.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Despite of what they teach you in school, Poland wasn't and isn't the center of the Europe (well, geographicaly, yes, it is) or the World. I didn't notice their dislike or hate or whatever towards Poland or Polish users. They are just focusing on the countries that were a) most important during the period, b) most players like to play.
Oh, and they hate Poland so much that they decided to make a Polish Hussars DLC and give it away. How dare they!
Maybe you should go play some Witcher or something.

 

[Olligarchy]

I'm just getting tired of people arguing that PLC doesn't need attention because they didn't "come first in the contest for the best nation".

If you argue against something that I never asserted then this is a strawman. It's no name calling.
If one doesn't know central european history then that person is ignorant about it (duh). That's fine, nobody knows about everything, but then why write about what you don't know?

Also I'm not interested in educating people on the internet. Especially if one can't find out what PLC had to do with enumerated countries then there's hardly a point in communicating.

I will not make bold claims on being an expert in polish history, but I will say that I have studied them more than your average person. What you are continuously stating is basically,"If you disagree with me you are either stupid or have never opened a book" where as I notice that most replies to your posts concern the viability of what you are demanding. I don't care what has been said in other threads, all I care about is what is being said on THIS thread.

The claim that the lack of attention to the PLC is making the whole game bland is also far fetched. For one we haven't seen any information about them yet, and as such one should withhold judgement. With your logic every country should be given loving detail and lavished with details even if there are precious few to have. This would mean that Finland would have critical and strategic mechanics to itself since it was a strategic battleground for Sweden and Russia! Strategic importance is already modeled into the game with warfare and such, and I for one am content with that.

Countries like France and England got the whole "colonization" thing. Plus the entire game concept is built to represent western european goverments such as those found in those countries.
On the other hand, those mechanics are wildly inacurate in describing any of important events in PLC history (and since they had wider impact it's also a problem for other countries)

It's not about PLC it's the entire region! If PLC would be fixed I'd be asking for better Balkans. Not because of singular importance of Serbia or coolnes of Iskander, but because it was a region very important for major european players.

Please don't explain to me how game development works. I just expressed how I feel about those decisions. I know that at this point the only thing I could count on is that they are witholding something to make a big splash at the end (fat chance!).

I really can't argue that everyone could use some love, but if you are interested in making the game better in the future you could look into modding. The thread here is to work on country ideas and some events, hopefully it will eventually be converted into a full fledged mod with people from the thread working on it.

Oh right... when speaking of ignorance I have a request: Please work on your spelling a bit. I am aware that even my own has some glaring mistakes, but I can't make out much of what you are trying to state due to the numerous spelling mistakes you've made.

 

[Slargos]

The attitude of "Poland is the best and should be on top of tier zero..." you two represent is why Poles are treated like bunch of nationalistic whiners by some of the users.

Correction. They are a representation of the type of people who get treated like a bunch of whiners. Balkantard, Polack or otherwise.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy patriotism, but given 40 million polacks there's bound to be plenty of disturbing ones.. :closedeyes:

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Despite of what they teach you in school, Poland wasn't and isn't the center of the Europe (well, geographicaly, yes, it is) or the World. I didn't notice their dislike or hate or whatever towards Poland or Polish users. They are just focusing on the countries that were a) most important during the period, b) most players like to play.

In fact, I think Poland was one of the most interesting countries to play in EU2 given its unique circumstances and challenges. Especially so in MP.

Maybe you should go play some Witcher or something.

Ouch.

 

[Sathariel]

They said PLC will get its DD, so I`m assuming it will. Some country, one way or another has to be the last: can be just as well the Commonwealth.

 

[stilgarpl]

Correction. They are a representation of the type of people who get treated like a bunch of whiners. Balkantard, Polack or otherwise.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy patriotism, but given 40 million polacks there's bound to be plenty of disturbing ones.. :closedeyes:

You are right, of course. On the side note, I'd just like to point out, that the proper term is "Pole", "Polack" is kind of pejorative... (although the word "Polak" in Polish is perfectly fine, which is very confusing).

In fact, I think Poland was one of the most interesting countries to play in EU2 given its unique circumstances and challenges. Especially so in MP.

I'm not saying it's not fun, in fact I'm planning to play as Poland (just after I try Brandenburg and Japan ). I'm just saying it doesn't need special mechanic. As tier 2, I'm sure it will have a lot of events and DHE.

Ouch.

What?

 

[unmerged(415869)]

Don't call someone a troll just because he sees things differently.

So they are giving moderator rights to trolls now?

Also I would argue that Poland-Lithuania was taken very seriously, so that when a nationalist threat rose within called the Bar Confederation Russia nipped it in the bud, and that when the American Revolution led to radical (for the time) ideas being adopted the second partition happened; and Kosciuzko not giving up led to the nation's existence ending.

No, before The Partitions PLC was a de facto vassal of Russia. Catherine the Great made her lover the king of PLC goddamit!

What? Yes you can. You set conditions to trigger the likelihood of the event. This won't translate into a perfectly scripted replication of history as it was, but that's not the point of the game either. To each his own.

No you can't. Let's see how do you implement choosing from a set of internal and external candidates with events. The devs already confirmed you won't be able to compare variables in scripts...

That's just the thing though. After Poland inherited Lithuania, it was ruled by a succession of ineffective kings that made PLC, quite literally, a "static blob" for the latter half of the game, defined by political inactivity.
More historical misconceptions

The first king after Jagiellons died out was Henry III of France, certainly not incompetent. Howver he simply run away to France after two years of having to deal with local nobles.

 

[stilgarpl]

So they are giving moderator rights to trolls now?

Friendly advice: you don't talk to Veld like that. You just don't.
It's like asking for a ban...

 

[rybka]

Correction. They are a representation of the type of people who get treated like a bunch of whiners. Balkantard, Polack or otherwise.

Could you mind your language? 'Polack' is insulting.

 

[stilgarpl]

Could you mind your language? 'Polack' is insulting.

But "Balkantard" isn't?

 

[panionios]

England only gets two events, so I see no reason why PLC should get any special attention. I think a DD like the one for Denmark-Norway would be sufficient.

 

[Slargos]

Could you mind your language? 'Polack' is insulting.

Swedish: "Polack"

Norwegian: "Polakk"

Polish: "Polak"

English: View attachment 83611

Makes sense.

 

[stilgarpl]

Makes sense.

No one said it does