Poland-Lithuania cannot into DD?

[Olligarchy]

No, there were only strawman arguments relating to PLC not being able to project power.
My point is that internal setup of PLC was crucial at one time or another (or many times) for the following prime focus countries: Hapsburgs, Brandenburg, Netherlands, Hansa, Ottomans, Muscowy and Sweden. If you deny that, you are simply ignorant.
So this omission makes the game much more bland for those countries.


This is just your taste, but still even by your measure PLC would have had way more noticeable impact for anybody playing in Europe than Japan.

I didn't suggest making it into a "central feature", it's just an important factor missing.

I am going to risk sounding rude, but the fact that you accuse people of making straw men, and then call them ignorant shows that you are taking this issue far too personally. Nobody is denying the importance of the PLC , but paradox has set their goals at a certain level and no amount of complaining about it will change it.

You see the problem isn't that the PLC wasn't important, the problem is that they are not the only nation deserving some serious love. Not even France or England has as much detail as they could. With he budget and timeframe that paradox is working with they are doing the best they can.

 

[stilgarpl]

No, there were only strawman arguments relating to PLC not being able to project power.
My point is that internal setup of PLC was crucial at one time or another (or many times) for the following prime focus countries: Hapsburgs, Brandenburg, Netherlands, Hansa, Ottomans, Muscowy and Sweden. If you deny that, you are simply ignorant.
So this omission makes the game much more bland for those countries.

Let's hear it then. What are your arguments? What did those countries did to Poland beside putting their own kings on the polish throne or having war with it, because you can do those things in game.
What mechanic do you propose for PLC? Devs do read those forums, so I'm sure they'll add it in DLC (it's too late for adding anything in base game) if your description will be good enough.

 

[Slargos]

Yes that is true but they still were far more "impotent/influential" than Sweden,Finland and Norway combined.( not sure about Denmark because of union)

To a certain point, you're right. The Liberum Veto did make Poland impotent.

However, I would argue that during large parts of the game's time period Poland was an important player.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Let's hear it then. What are your arguments? What did those countries did to Poland beside putting their own kings on the polish throne or having war with it, because you can do those things in game.
What mechanic do you propose for PLC? Devs do read those forums, so I'm sure they'll add it in DLC (it's too late for adding anything in base game) if your description will be good enough.

Your imagination seems to be terribly limited by very basic mechanics that vanilla EU3 can offer.

 

[unmerged(415869)]

I am going to risk sounding rude, but the fact that you accuse people of making straw men, and then call them ignorant shows that you are taking this issue far too personally. Nobody is denying the importance of the PLC , but paradox has set their goals at a certain level and no amount of complaining about it will change it.

I'm just getting tired of people arguing that PLC doesn't need attention because they didn't "come first in the contest for the best nation".

If you argue against something that I never asserted then this is a strawman. It's no name calling.
If one doesn't know central european history then that person is ignorant about it (duh). That's fine, nobody knows about everything, but then why write about what you don't know?

Also I'm not interested in educating people on the internet. Especially if one can't find out what PLC had to do with enumerated countries then there's hardly a point in communicating.

You see the problem isn't that the PLC wasn't important, the problem is that they are not the only nation deserving some serious love. Not even France or England has as much detail as they could. With he budget and timeframe that paradox is working with they are doing the best they can.

Countries like France and England got the whole "colonization" thing. Plus the entire game concept is built to represent western european goverments such as those found in those countries.
On the other hand, those mechanics are wildly inacurate in describing any of important events in PLC history (and since they had wider impact it's also a problem for other countries)

It's not about PLC it's the entire region! If PLC would be fixed I'd be asking for better Balkans. Not because of singular importance of Serbia or coolnes of Iskander, but because it was a region very important for major european players.

Please don't explain to me how game development works. I just expressed how I feel about those decisions. I know that at this point the only thing I could count on is that they are witholding something to make a big splash at the end (fat chance!).

 

[Sir Iain]

No, there were only strawman arguments relating to PLC not being able to project power.
My point is that internal setup of PLC was crucial at one time or another (or many times) for the following prime focus countries: Hapsburgs, Brandenburg, Netherlands, Hansa, Ottomans, Muscowy and Sweden. If you deny that, you are simply ignorant.
So this omission makes the game much more bland for those countries.

True, but the same applies to loads of countries, especially those with unique types of government, like the Netherlands and Switzerland.

 

[unmerged(415869)]

True, but the same applies to loads of countries, especially those with unique types of government, like the Netherlands and Switzerland.

Republicanism and trade system both got additional work in the new version. Can you see a connection with those countries?

On a minor note I agree that the game lacks a good depiction of the relation between republicanism and the emerging bourgeois class.
This is why probably PLC will play like a western style republic.

 

[stilgarpl]

Your imagination seems to be terribly limited by very basic mechanics that vanilla EU3 can offer.

Yawn. I was asking for ideas, not for insults.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Yawn. I was asking for ideas, not for insults.

You got both, deservingly.

 

[stilgarpl]

You got both, deservingly.

Now that's just rude. I thought you were better than that, I guess I was wrong.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Now that's just rude. I thought you were better than that, I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, basically you are wrong.

 

[unmerged(415869)]

Yeah, basically you are wrong.

Don't feed the trolls

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Don't feed the trolls

While stilgarpl contributes nothing to the discussion, I think that you can be less hostile and more chilled out. It's not like you will force the devs to present Polish DD tomorrow. Also, to my understanding, developement phase is over, so none of the suggestions would be taken at this point. I think that they are purposefully delaying this DD to troll some Polish posters. Their dislike towards them, and eagerness of mods/admins to flag any of them as nationalist trolls at a first, tiny notice is well known, so tread carefully.

Besides, as with 'tiers' thread discussion - it's Swedish game not Polish, so it's being made with different perspective in mind. They have Paradox, we have CDProject.

 

[Dr. Dan]

While stilgarpl contributes nothing to the discussion, I think that you can be less hostile and more chilled out. It's not like you will force the devs to present Polish DD tomorrow. Also, to my understanding, developement phase is over, so none of the suggestions would be taken at this point. I think that they are purposefully delaying this DD to troll some Polish posters. Their dislike towards them, and eagerness of mods/admins to flag any of them as nationalist trolls at a first, tiny notice is well known, so tread carefully.

Besides, as with 'tiers' thread discussion - it's Swedish game not Polish, so it's being made with different perspective in mind. They have Paradox, we have CDProject.

Your hypocrisy is overwhelming. You ask for less hostility, yet you have been nothing but hostile.

Stilgarpl merely asked you to post some of the arguments you had and you responded with dogmatism, similarly to jboch. Please respond with an idea, not an insult, as stilgarpl put it. Then maybe the thread won't get derailed by your haughty attitude.

Edit: Though I do agree jboch ought to be less hostile

 

[unmerged(415869)]

He merely asked you to post some of the arguments you had and you responded with dogmatism, similarly to jboch. Please respond with an idea, not an insult, as stilgarpl put it. Then maybe the thread won't get derailed by your haughty attitude.

Ha ha! Those are simple facts, like Early Modern History 101. He could find out on his own if he bothered to look.

BTW:

Join Date Nov 2007
Posts 1

I delurked you after 5,5 years! Soon you won't be able to resist the temptation to waste time arguing about pointless things here!

While stilgarpl contributes nothing to the discussion, I think that you can be less hostile and more chilled out. It's not like you will force the devs to present Polish DD tomorrow. Also, to my understanding, developement phase is over, so none of the suggestions would be taken at this point. I think that they are purposefully delaying this DD to troll some Polish posters. Their dislike towards them, and eagerness of mods/admins to flag any of them as nationalist trolls at a first, tiny notice is well known, so tread carefully.

I'm chilled out, I think people are taking things too serious. Maybe it's me, but I don't find anything offensive in the word "troll" (nor "strawman"). I actually have some respect for world-class trolls like Weev.
No hard feelings here, and as I said above I'm not getting my hopes up. The purpose of the thread was more to confirm my dark suspicions.

Besides, as with 'tiers' thread discussion - it's Swedish game not Polish, so it's being made with different perspective in mind. They have Paradox, we have CDProject.

Don't forget People Can Fly (check out the ethan carter game!)
And Gog.com >> Steam [/nationalpride]

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Your hypocrisy is overwhelming. You ask for less hostility, yet you have been nothing but hostile.

He merely asked you to post some of the arguments you had and you responded with dogmatism, similarly to jboch. Please respond with an idea, not an insult, as stilgarpl put it. Then maybe the thread won't get derailed by your haughty attitude.

Edit: Though I do agree jboch ought to be less hostile

I'm tired. I'm veteran of 'EU4 tiers' thread. I posted link to whole thread consisting of 'PLC mechanics suggestions' earlier, which stilgarpl ignored. His posts suggest utter cluelessness about topic, and he just trolls jboch back.

 

[Dr. Dan]

I delurked you after 5,5 years! Soon you won't be able to resist the temptation to waste time arguing about pointless things here!

...This realization has caused me to die a little inside. So much for a grand entrance. I suppose it's time to go back into hiding. *ninja*

 

[Mixxer5]

Those "power games" took place in the endgame, when the PLC was very weak, so I doubt they are going to implement that in the mechanics.

That's right, but whole PLC government led to those "power games" (first privileges granted I mean). It c(/sh)ould be depicted in-game.

 

[unmerged(415869)]

I'm tired. I'm veteran of 'EU4 tiers' thread. I posted link to whole thread consisting of 'PLC mechanics suggestions' earlier, which stilgarpl ignored. His posts suggest utter cluelessness about topic, and he just trolls jboch back.

Like people in that thread said, I think your system would be better served by a general purpose faction system.
It would be easy to make a special government form on top of that. The election would be handled by assessing faction preferences towards candidates (both based on the country of origin setup and any promises the candidate could make upfront).

Another thing is the relative independence of magnates on the international scene - I have no idea how to fit that in a sensible way.

...This realization has caused me to die a little inside. So much for a grand entrance. I suppose it's time to go back into hiding. *ninja*

Second post and counting (no :twisted: nor :evil: what?!)

 

[Artefactum]

PLC gets little attention, because people tend to look through the lenses of XVIII century. They assume that, since Poland ended up partitioned and humiliated then it was probably of little importance in centuries before. And on the other hand: Russia's rise to prominence causes them to overestimate its power in times before Peter the Great.

As a side note - Commonwealth's political system wasn't that unique. It relied on mechanisms and institutions that weren't unknown in Europe in given period.