Poland Leaders

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Woreczko
As for Jagiello stats, I`m, as usual, a bit sceptical. I admit that among his battles I know only Grunwald. Jagiello tactics there wasn`t especially brilliant, he didn`t make any(?) mistakes but neither he didn`t apply any surprising maneuvers or fighting tactics. Yes, he commanded his forces from the hill via adiutants, he kept reserves to the end and he had good control over PL army (managed to rally routing Czechs, didn`t allow plundering of TO camp). On the other hand Jungingen of TO also commanded his army from the rear untill the very end, altough he didn`t manage to stop about 30% of his regiments from pursuing retreating Lithuanians. Jungingen tried also to outflank PL army with his last reserves, but was unsuccesfull due to PL reserves.

Jagiello was for sure good in logistics, but regarding shock he deserves sth like 3.5 IMHO. 5 should be reserved for guys like Chodkiewicz, Tarnowski, Sobieski or Koniecpolski.

But maybe other battles by Jagiello will prove me wrong?

Jagiello was the great innovator, that's why he deserves high rank, not to mention that he never lost a battle. How many leaders never lost? Other battles of Jagiello were not involving so numerous armies. There are fights against Teutons before Krewo, occasional engagements against Muscovites and other ruthenian princes. Jungingen was commanding traditionally and stood with his chosen troops to make decisive impact. Jagiello never thought about introducing himself into the battle.

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Jagiello was the great innovator, that's why he deserves high rank, not to mention that he never lost a battle. How many leaders never lost? Other battles of Jagiello were not involving so numerous armies. There are fights against Teutons before Krewo, occasional engagements against Muscovites and other ruthenian princes. Jungingen was commanding traditionally and stood with his chosen troops to make decisive impact. Jagiello never thought about introducing himself into the battle.

But Jungingen WAS COMMANDING his army just as Jagiello, he just led the LAST attack of TO. He tried a difficult and decisive maneuver of outflanking the Poles (that was probably his last chance in this moment), so it`s understandable that he wanted to lead last troops personnally to bolster morale and to ensure that everything will go as planned. He did not manage to turn the tide with this action but nevertheless Jungingen shouldn`t be accused of being a traditional medieval commander who fights in front of his men.

As I said Jagiello did well, but I don`t see much innovativeness in that, what he have done. Ok, plan of the 1410 campaign was indeed innovative and well thought of, but that should go to logistic skill, not shock.

If other batlles by Jagiello were rather minor skirmishes then winning them all was not a big deal I suppose, but I may be wrong here.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Woreczko
If other batlles by Jagiello were rather minor skirmishes then winning them all was not a big deal I suppose, but I may be wrong here.

Come on, admit it, you have no idea what other battles Jagiello fought in

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Woreczko

As I said Jagiello did well, but I don`t see much innovativeness in that, what he have done. Ok, plan of the 1410 campaign was indeed innovative and well thought of, but that should go to logistic skill, not shock.

And how do we represent "logistical skill" in the game? Considering the shock is the only factor that effects battles pre-firearms in Eu2 (movement does not effect combat) logistical skill must be included within shock.

 

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
And how do we represent "logistical skill" in the game? Considering the shock is the only factor that effects battles pre-firearms in Eu2 (movement does not effect combat) logistical skill must be included within shock.

Aren't logistics modeled in the attrition modifier. The first number of a leader's stats; ability to move around without losing his men.

Looks appropriate.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
Aren't logistics modeled in the attrition modifier. The first number of a leader's stats; ability to move around without losing his men.

Looks appropriate.

It does look appropriate, however one can't rule out the effect of logistics in actual combat either. Which is why both shock and maneuver should be effected. As Darth Maur points out, Jagiello had more talents than just logists as well.

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Come on, admit it, you have no idea what other battles Jagiello fought in

Blah, I admitted it some posts before.

Just bring in some info about those battles
(yes, I`m lazy, I know )

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Woreczko
Blah, I admitted it some posts before.

Just bring in some info about those battles
(yes, I`m lazy, I know )

Who said I know anything about them?

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Woreczko
But Jungingen WAS COMMANDING his army just as Jagiello, he just led the LAST attack of TO. He tried a difficult and decisive maneuver of outflanking the Poles (that was probably his last chance in this moment), so it`s understandable that he wanted to lead last troops personnally to bolster morale and to ensure that everything will go as planned. He did not manage to turn the tide with this action but nevertheless Jungingen shouldn`t be accused of being a traditional medieval commander who fights in front of his men.

As I said Jagiello did well, but I don`t see much innovativeness in that, what he have done. Ok, plan of the 1410 campaign was indeed innovative and well thought of, but that should go to logistic skill, not shock.

If other batlles by Jagiello were rather minor skirmishes then winning them all was not a big deal I suppose, but I may be wrong here.

Heh, occasional engagements with Tatars and the like were the battle school of all great Polish leaders .
There was great innovatory introduced by Jagiello, this type of command without engaging into the battle. Jungingen, like every western leader had a control of the battle to the moment of personally led attack. This type of attack was recognized decisive in the western art of war of early 15th cen. So it was normal that Jungingen commanded the first stages of the battle while lost the grasp after the final attack. On the other hand Jagiello never planned to got himself directly into the battle. That's why Polish forces prevailed at last - Jagiello still could command while Jungingen lost that possibility. As you can see most of european leaders followed old "chivalric" rules during the whole 15th cen. to name Varna, Nancy, Morat, many others. Jagiello just broke the rule that was obvious in the western world that leader, especially King, must lead the decisive attack. Remeber that on Grunwald PL fought the best army of the early 15th cen and won. Both sides were furious while Teutons were generally better equipped and more disciplined (only Polish forces were on the same standard). Not to mention that Jagiello commanded two different armies while Teutons were quite unified.
These changes in style of commanding are usually traced to earlier experience of Jagiello he gained during these skirmishes against Mongols. Basically at Grunwald he successfuly merged western and eastern art of war being the precedor of all great Polish leaders who made tha same .

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Both sides were furious while Teutons were generally better equipped and more disciplined (only Polish forces were on the same standard). Not to mention that Jagiello commanded two different armies while Teutons were quite unified.

Just to add to this thought, the Teutons were on the defensive initially behind stockades and other such obstacles, and were using artillery which the Polish-Lithuanian army lacked completely. While artillery obviously wasn't a battle-turner at this point, it did have some use contrary to the belief that it was only good for sieges at this time.

Grunwald is an absolutely fascinating battle. Its of the same brand of battle of those like Waterloo that marks the decisive defeat of one, and the rise of another.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
Just to add to this thought, the Teutons were on the defensive initially behind stockades and other such obstacles, and were using artillery which the Polish-Lithuanian army lacked completely. While artillery obviously wasn't a battle-turner at this point, it did have some use contrary to the belief that it was only good for sieges at this time.

Grunwald is an absolutely fascinating battle. Its of the same brand of battle of those like Waterloo that marks the decisive defeat of one, and the rise of another.

There were only few pieces of artillery at Grunwald and none was used as Jagiello forced Teutons to attack thus making another obstacles, traps and so on quite useless. So Teutons were forced into very offensive stance.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by vilkouak
There were only few pieces of artillery at Grunwald and none was used as Jagiello forced Teutons to attack thus making another obstacles, traps and so on quite useless. So Teutons were forced into very offensive stance.

Odd, as I understood it, it was actually the Teutons that forced the Polish to attack. The armies bascially stared at each other for a number of hours, neither wished to take the offensive. So the Teutons sent a messanger forward that was basically saying that the Polish were not confident enough to attack the Teutons. So the combined Polish-Lithuanian force, advanced however a great number of the Lithuanians broke and began to flee, which then put the Polish back on the defensive, on and on...

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Heh, occasional engagements with Tatars and the like were the battle school of all great Polish leaders .
There was great innovatory introduced by Jagiello, this type of command without engaging into the battle. Jungingen, like every western leader had a control of the battle to the moment of personally led attack. This type of attack was recognized decisive in the western art of war of early 15th cen. So it was normal that Jungingen commanded the first stages of the battle while lost the grasp after the final attack. On the other hand Jagiello never planned to got himself directly into the battle. That's why Polish forces prevailed at last - Jagiello still could command while Jungingen lost that possibility. As you can see most of european leaders followed old "chivalric" rules during the whole 15th cen. to name Varna, Nancy, Morat, many others. Jagiello just broke the rule that was obvious in the western world that leader, especially King, must lead the decisive attack. Remeber that on Grunwald PL fought the best army of the early 15th cen and won. Both sides were furious while Teutons were generally better equipped and more disciplined (only Polish forces were on the same standard). Not to mention that Jagiello commanded two different armies while Teutons were quite unified.
These changes in style of commanding are usually traced to earlier experience of Jagiello he gained during these skirmishes against Mongols. Basically at Grunwald he successfuly merged western and eastern art of war being the precedor of all great Polish leaders who made tha same .

After Jungingen led last troops to the decisive attack and last-chance attack, there were no unengaged units left and thus noone to command. If he had stayed on the rear, he could have "supervised" the retreat at most. IMO his main fault was the inability to stop great number of men from chasing Lithuanians, they could have outflanked remaining PL forces in that moment and win the battle. And he used too many troops in the first attack. Jagiello kept fresh troops till the end, while Jungingen run out of organised regiments, that`s why Jagiello didn`t have to lead "last-chance" charge.

Anyway, I don`t claim that Jungingen was better commander than Jagiello. My point is that Jagiello`s leadership was faultless, he reacted to all TO actions as he should, but himself he did not make anything special, exceptional. 5 shock is a mark of an exceptional commander I think.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by vilkouak
There were only few pieces of artillery at Grunwald and none was used as Jagiello forced Teutons to attack thus making another obstacles, traps and so on quite useless. So Teutons were forced into very offensive stance.

Hmm, i though it were Lithuanians/Tartars who attacked first?

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Woreczko
Anyway, I don`t claim that Jungingen was better commander than Jagiello. My point is that Jagiello`s leadership was faultless, he reacted to all TO actions as he should, but himself he did not make anything special, exceptional. 5 shock is a mark of an exceptional commander I think.

Beign faultless deservces 5, if not 6 (for that particular battle). You don't have to invent some funny maneuvers to be excellent commanders-you just have to not prevent your enemies from doing mistakes.

Originally posted by N Katsyev
Odd, as I understood it, it was actually the Teutons that forced the Polish to attack. The armies bascially stared at each other for a number of hours, neither wished to take the offensive. So the Teutons sent a messanger forward that was basically saying that the Polish were not confident enough to attack the Teutons. So the combined Polish-Lithuanian force, advanced however a great number of the Lithuanians broke and began to flee, which then put the Polish back on the defensive, on and on...

Well, there is some village legend about that...

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by vilkouak
There were only few pieces of artillery at Grunwald and none was used as Jagiello forced Teutons to attack thus making another obstacles, traps and so on quite useless. So Teutons were forced into very offensive stance.

Moreover, both armies were cavalry heavy so TO couldn`t have set much traps, stockades, etc., because it would be also dangearous to TO, as such things are double edged weapons.

 

[boehm]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Beign faultless deservces 5, if not 6 (for that particular battle). You don't have to invent some funny maneuvers to be excellent commanders-you just have to not prevent your enemies from doing mistakes.


Well, there is some village legend about that...

well if u give a commander a 6 based on ONE battle where he made no mistakes wouldnt the world be full of "napoleons" then?

Already I think that there is too much inflation in leader stats....

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by boehm
think that there is too much inflation in leader stats....

Like Napoleon's.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Hmm, i though it were Lithuanians/Tartars who attacked first?

After Teutons were tired standing in the full sun for at least 4 hours. Light cavalry was sent to check were the traps were. As you can see none of Polish units was halted by the traps later.

Technically it were PL forces that attacked first but in fact it was prepared attack made after Teutons withdrew man meters.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
Odd, as I understood it, it was actually the Teutons that forced the Polish to attack. The armies bascially stared at each other for a number of hours, neither wished to take the offensive. So the Teutons sent a messanger forward that was basically saying that the Polish were not confident enough to attack the Teutons. So the combined Polish-Lithuanian force, advanced however a great number of the Lithuanians broke and began to flee, which then put the Polish back on the defensive, on and on...

Nope. Jagiello allowed them to provoke himself (the famous scene with two bare swords). Polish forces were standing in the forest while Teutons since 8.00 a.m up to 14.00 a.m. were standing on the field in the full sun (there was mid of the summer). Jungingen realised that his forces may be too tired to fought soon and decided to give back the field to Poles. Teutons marched back many meters making all previous preparations (and traps) pretty useless and making the charge of PL forces possible.

Technically you are right. There were PL forces that attacked but in fact Jagiello decided about it after winning the better position that was much worser for Teutons and was one of the most important factors of their defeat.
The King was told many times earlier (by Witold too) to attack but luckily declined.