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MattyG

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Great history Matty but i was hoping that in Interregnum King will have more power.
We dont need to adopt concesion events , better write about king who tries gather more
power and szlachta chalenging him.
Name for senate could be "Wysoka Rada" (something like High Council)

Thanks.

I think it is fair to have that happen from Kowalski onwards.

I don't really see how Poland's elected monarchs could ever strengthen their powers, when the Sejm would only elect someone who conceded them powers, not took it away: the system was totally broken.

What we can do is give an option where Kowalski seizes power at some point, especially likely if Poland is at war.
 

MattyG

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I just checked the INT2 map downloaded from one of the threads... Is the province of Opole. IRL, in 1419 the Duchy of Opole was outside Polish jurisdiction, just as it is in Kasperus' map. Is there any specific reason behind this fact?

Honestly, I'm not for fantasy monarchs, at least in the first century of the game. Perhaps instead of making up fictional Piasts, some RL ones, such as the Masovian or Silesian lines?

So are you wanting the Duchy of Opole to be included in INT2?

I would be happy to do this, except we all know how long it will last ...
 

Varcislaus

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Honestly, I'm not for fantasy monarchs, at least in the first century of the game. Perhaps instead of making up fictional Piasts, some RL ones, such as the Masovian or Silesian lines?
I was thinking same way on begining but panther-anthro was not happy about
that , we could start with fictional hier of Kazimierz III and upon his hierless death
make event where we could choose silesian or mazovian or fictional line.
If we choose silesian line they politics will concentrate westwards , but if we choose masovians they will purse east .It would be good begining.

What you think about that ?
 

Jedrek

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For A4K, Emperor_krk invented a chain that would bring the Griphite dynasty of Słupsk (German Stolp?) to Polish throne upon the death of Kazimierz III. That would fit Kazimierz's political will, as he hoped his grandson Kaźko (short of Kazimierz) would inheirit the throne instead of the Angevins.

The weak point of this idea is that in INT2, Hungary is probably far more powerful than IRL, so I bet Angevins would easily secure the throne if they wanted. Still, with Lithuanians on a rampage, the Teutons fightin all their neighbours and this nasty Halych around, everything is possible ;)

Inserting one provinced minors is surely not a good idea. I guess Opole should be either given to Silesia, or stay with Poland.
 

RappaR

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I do not think, that polish sejm was so strong already in 1419. Only 50 years ago Kazimierz the Great ruled by strong hand. Reason of weakening monarch power was foreigner monarch in country and passive rules next kings. Moreover, privilege were granted to hold descendents of current, foreigner king(i.e. Ludwik Andegawen and Władysław Jagiełło). If we remain king from Piast's Dynasty, I would say that Poland should has even high centralization.
 

MattyG

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For A4K, Emperor_krk invented a chain that would bring the Griphite dynasty of Słupsk (German Stolp?) to Polish throne upon the death of Kazimierz III. That would fit Kazimierz's political will, as he hoped his grandson Kaźko (short of Kazimierz) would inheirit the throne instead of the Angevins.

The weak point of this idea is that in INT2, Hungary is probably far more powerful than IRL, so I bet Angevins would easily secure the throne if they wanted. Still, with Lithuanians on a rampage, the Teutons fightin all their neighbours and this nasty Halych around, everything is possible ;)

Inserting one provinced minors is surely not a good idea. I guess Opole should be either given to Silesia, or stay with Poland.

This sounds interesting.

I will have to look at the a4k file and see what it leads to, but it doesn't change a bigger issue that I am facing as I grapple with Polish history ...

Please see the next post. :)
 

MattyG

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Not only do we want to change Polish history (because this is an alt history project) but there is no Lithuania in INT and so Jagialo cannot ascend to the throne to replace the last of the Piasts.

However, this is a critical moment for the development of Polish history and culture. Becuase we don't have this, everything changes. No concessions to the nobility, no Nihil Novo, no Golden Liberty, no Samartism. It's all gone, because it never started.

This means not only reworking the history but acknowledging that much of what made Polish culture what is was (and now is) would not have happened and it would not have developed. More so than for any other culture in Christian Europe, I would say.

I would like to argue that we need to retain some of the qualities of that history, at least until the Kowlaski period. meaning that I'd like us to continue with the idea that the Piasts still died off, and that another dynasty rose to be given the throne but that they were still saddled with the same requirement of appeasing the nobility in order to have the dynasty succeed.

This could begin with the Griphite dunasty to the throne, as Jedrek proposes.

(Side note: if this is the same family that were the Dukes of Pomerania, then this creates some interesting cores events ...)

However, the Griphites also don't last, and in the 1450s Poland finds itself in a similar position of seeking a new 'dynasty' and accepting a powerful family on the premise that it concedes to the szlachta greater powers.

This dynasty again fails, in around 1520, and the szlachta has learned the lesson: keep electing monarchs and they'll keep conceding you powers.

In this way, Poland's critical nobolity can be said to develop its same powers and cultural preocupations, leading to the 'stagnation' which forms the basis for kowalski's ability to take over the state (assuming Poland is still alive then).

Of course, if Poland disappears in the first 20 years as it so often does, then Kowalski emerges anyway, to produce a reformed Poland that goes on the rampage, so that's separate.

Another idea - although it may seem too close to RL, is that of a union with Halych-Volhynia. It would have to be under the right circumstances which would include:

1. H-V owns at least one Polish province.
2. H-V needs to still have the Lex Halicia in place.
3. H-V needs to have a positive relationship with Poland.
4. Poland cannot be more than 4 provinces.

If these three conditions can be met, then a Confederation could be formed. It would prevent H-V from ever forming Ruthenia, and force it to continue in its 'western' path. This would be a big compromise for the Poles in that the H-V monarch is Orthodox, but the Lex and its promise of religious freedom makes it possible. This would still mean that Kowalski could have a Reformed-based Polish-nationalist uprising, although H-V could forestall this with enough Inno and Decentralization.

Thoughts?


EDIT:

I looked at the monarch list for Poland in A4K and it seems more and more the right way to go, especially as Pommerania will exist in INT2. This would mean that Poland and Pommerania would eventually be united (if they still exist) giving another way in which Poland might survive as AI. More options, more possibilities. (More cores).

And with Boguslaw II being so goo, it means that Poland has two good monarchs, BogII in the early 1500s and a centuriy later with Kowalski. In between, they'll have crap (but good, solid, honourable Polish crap).
OK, I
 
Last edited:

Varcislaus

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Matty you are great , i like especialy H-V idea and Poland-Pomerania state , but remember we dont need to copy A4K .
 
Last edited:

MattyG

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Matty you are great , i like especialy H-V idea and Poland-Pomerania state , but remember we dont need to copy A4K .

Borrow.

Not copy, borrow. :cool:
 

MattyG

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I am making really good progress on the Polish event file.

Is anyone out there interested in reviewing it, especially anyone with an understanding of the Interregnum game and Polish history?
 

Jedrek

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May I have a chance as well? :)
 

MattyG

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I have uploaded the material here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?n2r422zzxgr

Please note that the material is not complete, although everything that is present is pretty much final.

I have changed direction a couple of times, which is why it has taken 'so looooong'.

Pommerania is now a two province country at game start, Hinterpommern from Brandenburg and Vorpommern from Hansa.

The things left to complete include:

1. More events for the Dukes of Opole monarch line. Mostly not positive events, but having them does help you avoid the Civil War.

2. Reformation events for the all three possible lines of monarchs in that period (Opoles, Pommeranians and the Sejm).

3. After the Civil War the result is either the Opoles, Hungarian or Halychian lines. For the latter two there is a chance of Polish union with H-V or Hungary. This is not yet written up.

4. More events for the Kowalski period. I have not outlined the struggle for power or any of the events during his period, such as additional cores, justification for his desire for conquest or the responses of the rest of Europe. Yes, a lot of material left.

5. What happens with the monarch line after 1675, which is where they all converge.

Matty
 

MattyG

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Any thoughts?

:eek:

:(

:cool:

:confused:
 

thunderhawk

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For your reformed semi democratic uprising, I suggest you read of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Frycz_Modrzewski



perhaps German town law can be replaced with "Modrzewski ideals" or "Modrzewski rights" ?


Suggested event set:
(please note: my suggested event set makes him and his ideas more important and revolutionary then they were, but not "far more" )


1)
Modrzewski revolts
Code:
trigger: none

province: 299, 300, 314, 303, 313, 301, 302, 291 
 - maybe 292 (Podlasia) too, but with different conditions??
 - maybe 314 (Silesia) too, but with different conditions??

For each province with historic Polish population (even if culture is different) and regardless who owns it, be it Poland or other nations




date: ~1540 
offset: 700.
deathdate: ~1542

blurb: 
Modrzewski's work has caused demands by the people for more freedoms. 
[insert info about the work from Wikipedia ;)]

a) => supress Modrzewski's work
province revolt risk +2

b) => adopt some of Modrzewski's ideals: 
aristocracy -2
serfdom - 2
centralization +1
innovative +2
relations drop with a bunch of countries, PAP and neighbours
set Modrzewski_ideas = yes
I would suggest that the event for 300 fire/spark the event for 299, which fires the event for 314, which fires the event for 313, and then 302, onward.. This way all events are fired one after the other so there wont be 8-9 windows poping up at once (and no confusing adoption once and revolts the rest of the time).


2)
treatment of Modrzewski
(assume he lives in Wielkopolska at time of revolts)
Code:
#conservative_rules_Wielkopolska
trigger: serfdom>5 OR Aristocracy >5 OR innovative <5
date: ~1542, off set 3600.
province: 300 (Wielkopolska, his ~home) 

blurb: Modrzewski's work has caused demands for more freedoms by the Polish people. [add more info about the work from Wikipedia ;)]

a) => Supress and then execute Modrzewski 
revolt risk +1 24 months, 
trigger Polish rebellion set.
Sleep Liberal rules Wielkopolska

b) => supress Modrzewski's work
c) => supress Modrzewski's work
revolt risk +1 24 months
flag = Modrzewski_supressed
Sleep Liberal_rules_Wielkopolska

d) => adopt his ideas!
centralization +1
innovative +2
aristocracy -1
serfdom -2
Sleep liberal_rules_Wielkopolska
flag = Modrzewski_ideas = yes
#d) exists as a way out for a human player



#Liberal_rules_Wielkopolska
trigger: NOT = { serfdom>5 OR Aristocracy >5 OR innovative <5 }
date: ~1542, off set 3600.
province: 300 (Wielkopolska, his ~home) 

blurb: Modrzewski's work has caused demands for more freedoms for the Polish people. [add more info about the work from Wikipedia ;)]


a) => supress Modrzewski's work
revolt risk +1 24 months
flag = Modrzewski_supressed
Sleep conservative_rules_Wielkopolska

b) => adopt his ideas!
centralization +1
innovative +2
aristocracy -1
serfdom -2
Sleep conservative_rules_Wielkopolska
flag = Modrzewski_ideas = yes

c) => Supress and then execute Modrzewski
d) => Supress and then execute Modrzewski
revolt risk +1 24 months, 
trigger Polish rebellion set.
Sleep conservative_rules_Wielkopolska

3)
Modrzewski supressed
Code:
trigger: Modrzewski_ideas = no

province: 299, 300, 303, 313, 301, 302, 291 
 - maybe 292 (Podlasia) too, but with different conditions?
 - maybe 314 (Silesia) too, but with different conditions?
For each province with historic Polish population (even if culture is different) 
and regardless who owns it, be it Poland or other nations

date: 
dated and offset after Liberal/conservative rules Wielkopolska, or maybe triggered directly from that event?

blurb: reperscussion of supressing Modrzewski

a) damnit! 
revolt x1 
province revolt risk +1

4)
Modrzewski executed
- these events are for each of the provinces, but they are all triggered (sparked) by choosing to execute Modrzewski in the (#2) conservative/liberal rules Wielkopolska events

Code:
trigger: Modrzewski_ideas = no
#basically, if you own a ~Polish province other then 300, have chosen to embrace his ideas, and some one else had Modrzewski executed, you wont get hit by these revolts.

province: 299, 300, 314, 303, 313, 301, 302, 291
 - maybe 292 (Podlasia) too, but with different conditions?
 - maybe 314 (Silesia) too, but with different conditions?

For each province with historic Polish population (even if culture is different) and regardless who owns it, be it Poland or other nations



blurb: the execution of Modrzewski have resulted in a wave of revolts by the Poles!

a) damn him and his ideas!
revolt x3 
province revolt risk +4

This is a bit extreme and perhaps way over powering, but perhaps the Modrzewski_executed events for provinces 300, 299 and one or two others could also change the provincial religion to reformed.


So, unless province 300 (Wielkopolska) is owned by a benevolent country it is likely that Modrzewski will die, and there will be a +6 province revolt modifier, plus another 1 for general unrest (for 24 months) and perhaps even more if religion is changed (which would give the added benefit of making it more likely Poland stays reformed). The result should be plenty of revolts. If its not enough for Poland to break free - make the provincial RR boosts higher.


Perhaps some conditions should also be in place if its Poland or a reformed nation who owns the provinces (or events that reduce the RR for each province, later). Poland loosing one of their core province to revolters upset with the government, and then that province fleeing to the Teutons or Hungry to seak more "freedoms" doesnt strike me as very logical.






BTW..


Historic Calvanism in Poland-Lithuania had a large symbolic impact from the Bohemians (Hussites) settling in the lands of Poland and Lithuania, and their descendents influencing the locals, including future rulers/magnates (magnate = richest of the Szlachta). The Calvinism of 1550s was new and different from the Hussite reformation, but the symbolic link was there. The major Polish Calvinist movements were also partly supported by the Lithuanian Black Radziwill, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikołaj_"the_Black"_Radziwiłł, they and he alike were influencial and rose to prominence in part because his relative married the King of Poland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Radziwiłł

If the Lithuanian connected is gone in Interregnum then with it goes the historic political (and financial) support of the Calvinist reformation in Poland-Lithuania. I suggest you make up for that with stronger Polish ties with Bohemia during and after the Hussite wars and perhaps the occational event about Hussite settlers fleeing. Perhaps start the scenario with military access for both countries through each other - that would give Hussites a (small) manouvering advantage over a much more powerful Hungary.


I dont see anything written with Bohemia and the hussite reformation being changed for interregnum, so you may want to have tie-in events with Bohemia.


Perhaps something as simple as a protestant/reformed Bohemia funding the rebellion:

trigger: dont own any of the Polish cores (except Silesia/314), be protestant/reformed(/orthodox?)

a) => 200 gold, and they trigger a set of events mirroring the Modrzewski executed event set (except 314), even if Modrzewski isnt executed (or just supressed).
- though the reciever of that mirror set would also get a -10 to relations with Bohemia.
b) => do nothing.




edit1: clarity
edit2: I realize my timing sucks..
 
Last edited:

Emperor_krk

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Any thoughts?

:eek:

:(

:cool:

:confused:
A few notes:
The kings named Boguslaw in your monarch file should have numbers, respectively, I and II - I guess you confused them with the Boleslaw's, a much more common name among the Polish rulers of pre-1419 period.

The kings named Karel (Hungarian line) should be called Karol; the former is a Czech form of the same name; same for Vaclav -> Waclaw and Ludvik -> Ludwik.

Stanislaw Leszczynski's stats should be higher; he was a very good administrator, see here. For his reign in Lorraine he was called something like 'bon roi Stanislaus' by the French, due to how good for the Lorraine his reign was (excuse me for any mistake in that French phrase, I don't know that language at all).

I can see that you have indeed borrowed a few ideas of mine, but expanded and upgraded them. Bravo! I can only congratulate you on your strong will to go on Matty, a feature that I lack in my development of mods.

Ah, and - please - priviledge of Kruszwica, not Kruswica :).
 

MattyG

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Emperor,

Thanks for the corrections, I will make them all, except that Stanislaw Leszczynski does not come across all that well from the article you suggest. It looks like he may have been a fine administrator of a small and stable dukedom (Lorraine) but clearly not up to the leadership of a large and complicated nation like Poland. Low DIP and low MIL seem quite appropriate for him, but I can see that his ADM ought to be 7.

As for the will to go on, it is a strange thing and has helped me to understand how others so doggedly pursue things. It isn't discipline. Discipline is what gets you through things you don't like when you have to do them. It's more primal than that. I love it and I think about it a lot, and I just feel drawn to it. It's not something I choose, it seems, but feels like something that has chosen me. One day it might simply evaporate, I don't know. But for now, the only problem is finding the time to do the work I want to do.

Maybe you'd like to just work on a single Interregnum file?
 
Last edited:

Emperor_krk

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Emperor,

Thanks for the corrections, I will make them all, except that Stanislaw Leszczynski does not come across all that well from the article you suggest. It looks like he may have been a fine administrator of a small and stable dukedom (Lorraine) but clearly not up to the leadership of a large and complicated nation like Poland. Low DIP and low MIL seem quite appropriate for him, but I can see that his ADM ought to be 7.

As for the will to go on, it is a strange thing and has helped me to understand how others so doggedly pursue things. It isn't discipline. Discipline is what gets you through things you don't like when you have to do them. It's more primal than that. I love it and I think about it a lot, and I just feel drawn to it. It's not something I choose, it seems, but feels like something that has chosen me. One day it might simply evaporate, I don't know. But for now, the only problem is finding the time to do the work I want to do.

Maybe you'd like to just work on a single Interregnum file?
Come to think of it, you're right with Leszczyński.

Hm, no, thanks ;). I've come back to the work on egufsmising Interregnum. I'm doing it - slowly, more or less steadily, but I am doing it. I will have it done, surely, but I can'm promise a certain date - you see, I am now 2 months before my Polish equivalent of A-level exams, which makes me refrain from doing this kind of stuff (that is to say, modding), due to it being too time-consuming.
 

MattyG

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Come to think of it, you're right with Leszczyński.

Hm, no, thanks ;). I've come back to the work on egufsmising Interregnum. I'm doing it - slowly, more or less steadily, but I am doing it. I will have it done, surely, but I can'm promise a certain date - you see, I am now 2 months before my Polish equivalent of A-level exams, which makes me refrain from doing this kind of stuff (that is to say, modding), due to it being too time-consuming.

Even better!

Good luck with your A-levels.
 

MattyG

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