Poland has not yet been lost, so don't make it too weak!

[Big Blue Blob]

Who says that it is actually easier to play as the losing side than as the winning side?
Sure, you can conquer the world with Germany, you can conquer the world with pretty much every other nation in the game. People have done it with Lithuania, Albania and maybe even Luxembourg. Being able to win with Germany doesn't mean that it is easier than doing it with the USA, Soviet Union or Great Britain. If you are somewhat good at the game, none of the big nations are particularly hard to win with.


In the end, what needs to be done is what is the best for gameplay. If the developers can pull it off to have every nation with their historic military strength while ending up with a historical result pretty much every time, then yes, the historical setup would be great. If the AI can't pull it off though, changes need to be made. Having France or Poland at their historic strength is less important than having WW2 play out somewhat historically. You don't want to end up with players complaining because they spend a lot of effort in a US-game, only to have Germany fail beating France 50% of the time, thus making the whole game more or less irrelevant or broken.

Making a nation a bit weaker is a whole lot easier done than forcing the AI into behaving stupidly (as in, making a better AI act stupid).

Read my point about not all AIs behaving the same. The France AI would be slow and disorganised, while the German AI would be far more astute and aggressive. 1 AI for all nations does not, has not and will not work because not all nations acted or reacted the same way - contrast French and German tactics and strategy for a clear example, or the change in Soviet strategy and tactics throughout the war, going from being encircled and demolished by Germany to successfully defeating them again and again. Without changes in AI behaviour, this cannot be represented. With changes, a historical WW2 is completely possible with all nations at historical strength.

 

[Honza58]

Yes the land army was pretty much on par with the German, the tanks were maybe even a slightly better. The Germans had far superior air force. But in HoI3 due to limited leadership/bad starting techs you were not able to get where Czechoslovakia was in technology by Munich. Not sure how the IC is doing compared to others since it is a long time since I played last time. But no matter what I believe that if they would decide to defend, then Germany should have hard time defeating them and not blitzing right through... On the other hand If Czechoslovakia surrenders as they did, Germany should profit greatly from this.

 

[Opanashc]

Depends on the time frame.
If we consider late 1939-early 1940, then, it is quite tiny, compared to French 110+ divisions or German 140+, or USSRs over 9000.

Who cares if Germany had 140+ divisions at the time of the Battle of France in 1940, if the date on the calendar is October 1938.
PS USSR had ~550 divisions max, with a complement of about 2/3 that of western powers - so make it ~360 or so, and compare to Germany's 300 in 1944.

 

[Meglok]

Poland is a speed bump. It had obsolete armor and little of it, obsolescent aircraft and fewer of them, little to no mechanization, a smaller manpower base and less industrialization than either of it's two potential opponents, has few natural barriers to defend behind, and had the unfortunate strategical reality of having to defend against larger opponents surrounding it on 3 sides. Not to mention it was trained in French doctrines of command and defense. It's only real choice to survive was to make common cause with one of it's neighbors against the other. Germany was the logical choice given the antipathy vis a vis the Soviets. Trade Germany the Danzig Corridor for a port east of Konigsburg (Memel perhaps), give up a little territory on the Silesian border for territory on the Slovakian border, and make common cause against the Soviets. Polish "honor" and the reliance upon false French promises prevented that as an option.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Poland is a speed bump. It had obsolete armor and little of it, obsolescent aircraft and fewer of them, little to no mechanization, a smaller manpower base and less industrialization than either of it's two potential opponents, has few natural barriers to defend behind, and had the unfortunate strategical reality of having to defend against larger opponents surrounding it on 3 sides. Not to mention it was trained in French doctrines of command and defense. It's only real choice to survive was to make common cause with one of it's neighbors against the other. Germany was the logical choice given the antipathy vis a vis the Soviets. Trade Germany the Danzig Corridor for a port east of Konigsburg (Memel perhaps), give up a little territory on the Silesian border for territory on the Slovakian border, and make common cause against the Soviets. Polish "honor" and the reliance upon false French promises prevented that as an option.

They still killed several thousand Axis and Soviet troops, and destroyed a fair few tanks. Weaker than Germany, yes. As weak as in HOI3? No.

 

[KevinG]

Considering, that most people cannot defeat Poland in historical timeframe, I would say it is NOT nerfed. However, the game is easily moddable - so if you disagree, buff Poland yourself.

Who is "most" people? You can literally kill Poland in 12 days just a-moving your tanks to the required VPs without bothering to micro them whatsoever. As for France, the reasons why they have to be nerfed is because IRL France falling that quickly was was a fluke, and they surrendered immediately after their army was encircled. In HOI3 you have to slog through the French countryside in order to get all the VPs to force them to surrender.

Also even though everyone bitches about too many provinces in HOI3, its actually got too few provinces along the German/French border to simulate the gap in the Ardennes. Any decent player can cover literally every border province with 4-5 divs, + cover the maginot and have enough to send an army in Belgium. 90% of HOI3 MP GER/FRA battles has Germany just battering through French infantry with tanks in Belgium WW1 style, or even breaking through the MAGINOT rather than through the Ardennes. There's no opportunity for sweeping encirclements because France just has to guard 8 border provinces with 70+ divisions.

 

[sermaciej]

Germany was the logical choice given the antipathy vis a vis the Soviets. Trade Germany the Danzig Corridor for a port east of Konigsburg (Memel perhaps), give up a little territory on the Silesian border for territory on the Slovakian border, and make common cause against the Soviets. Polish "honor" and the reliance upon false French promises prevented that as an option.

Why the hell would Germany trade with Poland? They wanted to get Danzig and exterritorial highway in exchange for peace (or for delaying full conquest, like in Czechoslovakia). And in August 1939 Poland didn't knew that France and UK will not help.

 

[Opanashc]

Poland is a speed bump. It had obsolete armor and little of it, obsolescent aircraft and fewer of them, little to no mechanization, a smaller manpower base and less industrialization than either of it's two potential opponents, has few natural barriers to defend behind, and had the unfortunate strategical reality of having to defend against larger opponents surrounding it on 3 sides. Not to mention it was trained in French doctrines of command and defense. It's only real choice to survive was to make common cause with one of it's neighbors against the other. Germany was the logical choice given the antipathy vis a vis the Soviets. Trade Germany the Danzig Corridor for a port east of Konigsburg (Memel perhaps), give up a little territory on the Silesian border for territory on the Slovakian border, and make common cause against the Soviets. Polish "honor" and the reliance upon false French promises prevented that as an option.

Another trouble in Poland was its mistreatment of minority of Ukrainians living there. Polish officers in Soviet captivity asked to strengthen their guard, while en route to prison camps, due to fear of Ukrainian populace they were marched through.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Who is "most" people? You can literally kill Poland in 12 days just a-moving your tanks to the required VPs without bothering to micro them whatsoever. As for France, the reasons why they have to be nerfed is because IRL France falling that quickly was was a fluke, and they surrendered immediately after their army was encircled. In HOI3 you have to slog through the French countryside in order to get all the VPs to force them to surrender.

Also even though everyone bitches about too many provinces in HOI3, its actually got too few provinces along the German/French border to simulate the gap in the Ardennes. Any decent player can cover literally every border province with 4-5 divs, + cover the maginot and have enough to send an army in Belgium. 90% of HOI3 MP GER/FRA battles has Germany just battering through French infantry with tanks in Belgium WW1 style, or even breaking through the MAGINOT rather than through the Ardennes. There's no opportunity for sweeping encirclements because France just has to guard 8 border provinces with 70+ divisions.

I absolutely agree with this.

 

[Axe99]

Who says that it is actually easier to play as the losing side than as the winning side?
Sure, you can conquer the world with Germany, you can conquer the world with pretty much every other nation in the game. People have done it with Lithuania, Albania and maybe even Luxembourg. Being able to win with Germany doesn't mean that it is easier than doing it with the USA, Soviet Union or Great Britain. If you are somewhat good at the game, none of the big nations are particularly hard to win with.

This is absolutely the case for HoI3 - I'm hoping that playing as a major (or Albania and Luxembourg!) will be a good deal more challenging in HoI4.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Germany still feels too easy. Sealion in particular is a walkover even without air or naval superiority, and the USA can be conquered easily.