Poland caves! Danzig corridor to Hitler!

[Razielus]

France allied with the Soviet Union? The same France terrified of communist fifth columnists, whose papers continuously spoke about the Red Menace and where you could be dropped out of politics if there was a whiff of you being a Soviet spy? Yes, I'm sure it would have 90% happened. Positive.

I also doubt that you would see the Soviets and the French get together.
Don't forget:
The Allies had supported the Whites.

Guys ... That wouldn't be alliance like "wooohoooo BFF" - Allies wouldn't have too many options but to make anti-axis coalition with the Soviet Union (and hey - they did that in mid-war)

 

[Klausewitz]

Guys ... That wouldn't be alliance like "wooohoooo BFF" - Allies wouldn't have too many options but to make anti-axis coalition with the Soviet Union (and hey - they did that in mid-war)

They did that after both sides were already at war with Germany and even then coordination proved spotty.

 

[keynes2.0]

Dont read too much into the sensationalism of the french newspapers. While the french government had caution about the soviets, they did see the soviets as an important counterweight to germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Soviet_Treaty_of_Mutual_Assistance

 

[GundamMerc]

Dont read too much into the sensationalism of the french newspapers. While the french government had caution about the soviets, they did see the soviets as an important counterweight to germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Soviet_Treaty_of_Mutual_Assistance

Which occurred before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Considering this is an alternate history thread, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact could be said to override said earlier treaty, and could possibly lead to an alliance between the USSR and Germany. Also, the treaty was largely seen as a hollow attempt to threaten Nazi Germany into submission by the French, not an actual attempt for a serious treaty with the Soviet Union.

 

[shri]

Dont read too much into the sensationalism of the french newspapers. While the french government had caution about the soviets, they did see the soviets as an important counterweight to germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Soviet_Treaty_of_Mutual_Assistance

Which died a death at the Anschluss and was buried at Munich.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I hope it is possible - though unlikely - that Germany will avoid war with the West, and simply take on the Soviets.

 

[keynes2.0]

Which occurred before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Which died a death at the Anschluss and was buried at Munich.

France saw the Soviets as a counterweight to Germany in 1935 but France and the Soviets failed to create a useful alliance later on. My point was to respond to someone saying that the french hated the soviets.

It's really annoying on these forums how people always leap to rebut arguments that no one is making.

 

[qwertzuiop]

Don't forget this.
For half a year Germany rightfully owned a lot of what later would become the area defined by the Generalplan Ost.
The idea of retaking what had been lost and expanding into the Soviet Union was not as incompatible as it is often thought.
Has it never accured to anybody to wonder why the French where not scheduled for extermination to provide Lebensraum, being the Erbfeind and everything?
Because the whole ideology of Hitler and the Nazis was heavily informed by their experiences in and observations of the World War I.
France was the enemy to be held off and probably be beaten, but the black earth of the Ukraine was to feed the German people and make them immune to the threat of the British Navy.

The easy victories in the East, the starvation bloackade, the long war in the West and the Worker's Revolution in both Russia and Germany were the guiding star of the Nazis and even more of Hitler.

Yes, it's true that World War I played a big role here - the thought that "large-scale expansion into the East is the most important target" was probably even older than that. But I think that apart from acquiring resources and being protected from any naval blockades, the main point was expansion for expansion's sake. What do I mean by that? Well, if Germany had indeed conquered Russia up to the Urals, the eastern border would have been closed off basically forever. Okay, "forever" doesn't really exist in history, but let's say it would have made a huge impact because the problem had always been that Russia and Germany - or whichever countries were bordering each other in north-eastern Europe - could freely invade each other due to the lack of natural barriers and Russia would almost be guaranteed to gain the upper hand due to their size. Strategically it's a pain if you have a neighbour who can invade you and may succeed while you can invade them too but cannot possibly succeed. There's also a reason why Napoleon lost.

 

[Mannstien]

I think no matter whether Danzig and the corridor were ceded or not Hitler still would have fabricated claims for a war with Poland as long as he had a pact with Stalin because to be brutally honest I think neither Hitler nor Stalin wanted Poland to be on the map and basically gain back everything lost between 1917-1930.

 

[shri]

France saw the Soviets as a counterweight to Germany in 1935 but France and the Soviets failed to create a useful alliance later on. My point was to respond to someone saying that the french hated the soviets.

It's really annoying on these forums how people always leap to rebut arguments that no one is making.

My only point was, the USSR did not believe France or rather Stalin did not believe France by 1939 and he was the only person who mattered.

 

[shri]

I think no matter whether Danzig and the corridor were ceded or not Hitler still would have fabricated claims for a war with Poland as long as he had a pact with Stalin because to be brutally honest I think neither Hitler nor Stalin wanted Poland to be on the map and basically gain back everything lost between 1917-1930.

there is a precedent to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
Also, the interesting thing is, Maria Theresa of Austria and Frederick the Great of Prussia had been enemies for 3 decades prior to these partitions and Catherine the Great of Russia didn't like Frederick and preferred Maria.

 

[Mannstien]

My only point was, the USSR did not believe France or rather Stalin did not believe France by 1939 and he was the only person who mattered.

Stalin, looked at the situation, and saw an opportunity to let the Fascist's and the Democracies wear themselves out in war.

 

[shri]

Stalin, looked at the situation, and saw an opportunity to let the Fascist's and the Democracies wear themselves out in war.

I actually agree with that and i even marked your post helpful. In Simon Sebag Montefiore's biography of Stalin he says-
"Stalin read the Molotov Ribbentrop agreement and thought it bunk, then he proceeded to write his own details on why the two countries were invading Poland to save the Germans, Ukranians, Balts and Poles living there from the corrupt and malevolent dictatorship of the generals. So good was his draft that it became part of the secret agreement and even Ribbentrop & Goebbels were impressed by it. (Says something about the man for sure)."

 

[ikki]

Only british, french and soviet guarantees and promises of much loot (allies wanted a war!) were what kept the poles from caving in.
Otherwise they would have been happy to cede danzig. (see finland i stormens öga, a book too controversial to be printed in finland.. so there is a swedish version available)

Of course in the end, the soviets did end up giving much of germany to the poles... making the desired end result of the seven year war happen.

 

[frolix42]

Only british, french and soviet guarantees and promises of much loot (allies wanted a war!) were what kept the poles from caving in.

The Allies obviously didn't want war in 1939 and it's not because they were great humanitarians. The post-Versailles geo-political order was set up to favor of the UK and France so it didn't make sense for them to disturb it by risking a second world war. If the "allies wanted a war!", they could've pushed back against Germany much more aggressively and probably gone to war over Sudetenland, or the Anschluss or the Reoccupation of the Rhineland. In reality the Euro-democracies rather craven obsession with avoiding war put them at a severe disadvantage (e.g. abandoning their Czech allies) once Hitler attacked Poland.

Otherwise they would have been happy to cede danzig.

Do you really think the prospect of being surrounded on all sides by Germany and the Soviet Union would make the Poles "happy"?

After the events of 14 March 1939, the consensus among Germany's neighbors was that appeasement had been a massive mistake. The Poles prudently viewed German territorial demands against them as a likely prelude to division and subjugation, which was the exact sequence of events to befall their southern Czechoslovak neighbors (and exactly what happened to Poland after Germany and the USSR invaded). It's no coincidence that the Polish government leaked German demands for Danzig in April 1939, which then made the transfer of territory to German politically toxic.