Poland A Bit Too Underpowered

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Suleyman
I agree with you Quizzical.

The last thing I want to see is that an AI Poland (along with ally Lithuania) will consistently gobble up an AI Muscovy long before a Russia can even exist.

Just try to imagine when 80% of the games end up with Poland and Lithuania stealing Russian provinces all the way up to Novgorod, Ryazan and Kazan and Tambow. And how about seeing the early destruction of both Pommern and Brandenburg all the time??

I certainly don't want that to happen....

Now it is exactly opposite than your suggestion. I gave Poland latin tech group months ago in my games and she very rare makes any inroads into HRE or crashing Russia. I put Polish ai quite peaceful too. In addition, Poland has no interest in fighing others since almost all of her cores are in the possession since the beginning.

Another argument about religion. Catholic Poland has many orthodox and protestant provinces that are very hard to convert due to lack of proper cultures by Poland. I would prefer 5 religion OT everytime, cause I get 4 cultures too.

Btw, very good post Metroncho.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Now it is exactly opposite than your suggestion. I gave Poland latin tech group months ago in my games and she very rare makes any inroads into HRE or crashing Russia. I put Polish ai quite peaceful too. In addition, Poland has no interest in fighing others since almost all of her cores are in the possession since the beginning.

Another argument about religion. Catholic Poland has many orthodox and protestant provinces that are very hard to convert due to lack of proper cultures by Poland. I would prefer 5 religion OT everytime, cause I get 4 cultures too.

Btw, very good post Metroncho.

At least here we have an example of the AI Poland not smashing up Russia. And the religion matter I agree with entirely, Poland while having to deal with Protestants and Orthodox, has these two religions mostly in non-culture lands. Poland routinely has German(Protestant), Baltic (Protestant), Lithuanian (Orthodox/2 begin as Catholic and easier to convert), and Ruthenian (Orthodox). Which not only as I said before gives her nightmarish stability costs, gives her a constant income sink hole to try and get missionaries to convince the herectics of the one true faith, elsewise the religious problems can cause her some serious heartache. Unless the Ottomans begin expanding into Persia, Mongol lands, or other places not of her core set, for the most part her other religions rest on culture territory, Poland/Lithaunia doesen't have this advantage, for her most of her core provinces are non-culture and non-religion, not a great combo.

 

[Judge]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
... I think i'll take that as a compliment. Anyway, this isn't some small "Holstein's population is wrong in 1773 and 1795", or "Denmark is missing Holstein core in 1492/1617" like I was doing before. This is a serious issue and critical for the eastern theatre, so naturally, i'm gonna need to put some back into it.

Yeah well I have been abroad for a couple of days and when checking in on the forum I discover new threads about Ukraine and Poland with an innumerable amount of arguments. You got to give that some credit even if you not always agree with the arguments (dont have an opinion here - at least not for the moment as I am bogged down in work right now)

 

[HydroSqueegee]

I havent played a GC yet in 1.06b where poland hasnt been diplo-annexed by Lith before 1540.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by HydroSqueegee
I havent played a GC yet in 1.06b where poland hasnt been diplo-annexed by Lith before 1540.

One of the horrible ironies of the GC.

 

[Smirfy]

I would be wary of putting Poland or Ottomans in the same tech group as Western Europe. The dynamic for innovaton just was not there to the same extent. Geography dictates this more than anything.

 

[stnylan]

I would be wary of putting Poland or Ottomans in the same tech group as Western Europe. The dynamic for innovaton just was not there to the same extent. Geography dictates this more than anything.

Poland was probably one of the most innovative 'big' states of Europe for the early part of the game .



More generally I think keep Lithuania with Orthodox tech. She's big enough that with Polish help she poses a credible historical threat to Russia during her existence (and remember Muscowy/Russia was the complete underdog until the mid 17th century).

Actually there is a *possible* historical argument to give Poland German and/or Ruthenian cultures. This might be another way to prop Poland up a bit. Ruthenian case is stronger IMO - Ruthenes were very much part of the Polish-Lithuanian government system, so perhaps give the culture as a side effect of the Union of Lublin event.

Though I have no idea how that would play out except it would likely mean more conversions but since the AI is not terribly brilliant at doing those anyway I see no real difficulty there.

I played through another game with Poland at Latin tech (I was playing England doing my favourite hobby - beating up the French ). They ended up annexing Wurzberd, and losing it to independence, and then annexing a couple of times. The had also sliced of Silesia and Moravia from Bohemia in the Hussite wars. Took Vorpommern. Later took Carpathia in a war v Hungary, and annexed Moldova at some point.

As for Russia, the Russian minors got split between the usual suspects of Muscowy, Lithuania, and Sweden (Sweden got some of those minor NVG provinces, Muscowy got the CoT; Pskov + Ryazan to Lithuania, Tver + Suzdal to Muscowy).

And then the perennial problem with AI Russia that has nothing to do with anything here - did nothing much against the Golden Horde/successor states. No real reason why not, just was very leisurely. Didn't finish off Kazan until after 1600 and never got into Sibir. In the 18th century she did advance against Sweden and Poland-Lithuania, more against the latter. CTD sometime in 1762.

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by stnylan
Poland was probably one of the most innovative 'big' states of Europe for the early part of the game .
.

I do not doubt it, but what i'm talking about is the dynamic for progression. Simple things like pick anywhere in the UK, how far are you from the sea? This is a principle dynamic for the period, next how much land was available and for which type of farming thats a difference between West and Eastern Europe. Change in farming methods was not economically viable in eastern Europe in the west it's essential to constantly intensify and improve. In every sector the pressure was on Western Europe to progress

 

[stnylan]

I do not doubt it, but what i'm talking about is the dynamic for progression. Simple things like pick anywhere in the UK, how far are you from the sea? This is a principle dynamic for the period, next how much land was available and for which type of farming thats a difference between West and Eastern Europe. Change in farming methods was not economically viable in eastern Europe in the west it's essential to constantly intensify and improve. In every sector the pressure was on Western Europe to progress

Many of the changes you refer to are not relevant at the start of the period and only become relevant in the seventeenth century.
By that time I certainly would advocate that Poland ought to be orthodox tech - which is what I and others are doing. I think this process happened a little earlier than N Kat perhaps (I think he said 1607 for the change, I think the Union of Lublin). Admittedly my knowledge is a little sketchy - good books on Poland that are available in my local library are few and far between.

Incidentally, it was possible to be a land empire and technologically innovative in this period - Russia, Brandenburg and the Hapsburgs spring to mind. Certainly trade was important but Poland had a thriving trade. It fed a fair amount of Europe - and do not forget that like Russia there are a fair few big rivers making internal trade possible within Poland, and without.

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by stnylan

Incidentally, it was possible to be a land empire and technologically innovative in this period - Russia, Brandenburg and the Hapsburgs spring to mind. Certainly trade was important but Poland had a thriving trade. It fed a fair amount of Europe - and do not forget that like Russia there are a fair few big rivers making internal trade possible within Poland, and without.

Russia innovative? not until Peter the Great surely and what was his driving ambitions

1/ A window to the west
2/ A navy

He had to drag Russia out of it's backward state single handly against every convention.

Any other country in Europe France Spain Holland or England picked up the tab

 

[RedPhoenix]

I think Poland should have latin tech more than say Spain and the likes, poland was much more innovative than spain was. For example.

I think poland is far too weak right now too, compared to what it was in reality, and compared to how other nations are now, poland should be a major too, but they are not as it is right now. A strong poland would definately make multiplayer and single player games far more interesting, and claims that poland would expand too much, well how do other similarly strong majors do now anyway? they expand,, yes.

I think poland should be given something to make them stronger, and I think latin tech group is justified considering their position in europe and their culture, religion and population at these times.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by stnylan
Many of the changes you refer to are not relevant at the start of the period and only become relevant in the seventeenth century.
By that time I certainly would advocate that Poland ought to be orthodox tech - which is what I and others are doing. I think this process happened a little earlier than N Kat perhaps (I think he said 1607 for the change, I think the Union of Lublin). Admittedly my knowledge is a little sketchy - good books on Poland that are available in my local library are few and far between.

Incidentally, it was possible to be a land empire and technologically innovative in this period - Russia, Brandenburg and the Hapsburgs spring to mind. Certainly trade was important but Poland had a thriving trade. It fed a fair amount of Europe - and do not forget that like Russia there are a fair few big rivers making internal trade possible within Poland, and without.

The thing with Poland stopping beign one of the most innovative and becoming one of the least is a process-thats why its hard to choose one date.

It can be said the process begun in the late XVI century and was mostly completed in late XVII. Any date in this timeperiod is viable for switching to worse techgroup.


Another thing which causes Poland underperformace (and, to an extent, Ottomans and Russia) is the underestimation of provincial wealth-and in Poland-Lithuania case in Grand Campaign, its compounded by events wiping out much of the tax values of the provinces-16 tax value in Lithuania, while whole Lithuania is worth, IIRC, about 80-thats a guess, and 24 in Poland, when whole Poland is worth 60-thats almost half of its tax value....

While human obviously won't choose A choice, AI is crippled by that.

 

[Varyar]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Lithuania? Yuck. Sounds horrible. Poland may be a good change especially if the Ottomans can be helped. But Lithuania?

I'm suggesting it only for game balancing. I'm no expert on lithuanian history but I seriously doubt that they lagged behind Muscowy/Russia in tech, at least not during the 15th century.


To test what is appropriate, I intend on repeating my hands-off strategy with the Ottomans, namely: Overkill

These are the changes I intend to implement during the testing:

*Poland starts with latin tech in the GC and loses it with the inheritence of Lithuania.
*Lithuania starts with orthodox tech but gains latin tech from the "The Statute of Lithuania" event(option a). If they choose not to be inherited by Poland, they lose latin tech.
*"The Statute of Lithuania" event option a will give Lithuania 3 random convertions.
*The polish inheritence of Lithuania will give Poland 2-3 random convertions.
*The Kurland COT will be moved to Danzig from the start of the GC.

Additional changes/tweaking may be applied. Result will be presented shortly

 

[unmerged(4953)]

I think Poland should have latin tech more than say Spain and the likes, poland was much more innovative than spain was. For example.

What are you talking about ? Spanish tercero was the way they did battle in the West all the way until Gustav Adolphus showed up.

 

[stnylan]

Smirfy, I am referring to Russia of the 18th century. And yes, Peter wanted a Navy but Peter did not neglect the army because it was the army that Russia's might depended upon. He proved that rather conclusively himself. However, just because Russia got started late does not invalidate the point that a land empire can be innovative.

Darthmaul, Indeed you make good points. I would say the Union of Lublin as the change because not long after there started a series of interregnums that eroded royal power and authority and weakened the state. Their is an argument for the deluge as well.

I had not thought about the events to be honest - too simple an explanation for a wordy thinker like me . I suppose softening those events would be another way to go.

 

[N Katsyev]

The key problem with Poland losing Latin tech in the Union of Lublin event, is the fact that they have no chance to fight the change, also, there wasn't a major issue with the Union that could cause a slow degeneration of the armed forces. This is why I choose the "Struggle for Royal Power" event in 1607. This was a turning point, where the nobility would take whatever remained of the monarch's power, and pursue their own goals, which centered more around colonization of the vast expanses than trade in the baltic regions, for example. In that event, the third option, "Wage a War of Extermination Against the Nobility", is just what the monarch probably needed to do at the time to finally force some centralization into the Commonwealth and decrease the power of the aristocrats. And don't worry, Poland pays for choosing this option, +5 RR for 20 years is nothing to laugh at, if Poland doesen't choose this option, she drops to Orthodox. Now during this period, a determined enemy could probably strip some lands from her, giving 1607 a balancing component as well.

While the events are bad, espeically in stripping tax value away from her, she can still I believe pretty powerful if she can just stay on tech parity with the best of Europe. She isn't lacking completely in resources, having a number 3 cloth provinces and 3 iron provinces, as well as a naval supplies province if I remember correctly, which gives her a chance for some nice industrialization as well, which Poland historically was in the middle of prior to the partitions. I don't think Poland was ever "not an innovative" state, as they kept up with trading practices, military theory and implementation.

I believe Poland should have Latin techgroup for both historical and gamebalance issues. A Poland with Latin tech, if he fights the nobility which can be trying SP, would be murderous MP, however if he succeeds, there is no reason whatsoever why he can't remain one of the most powerful in Europe. The true question is, can he survive the struggle as well as exterior threat? Suddenly, with the Latin tech change, I think we'll start seeing Poland not needing to make a ton of silly arrangements just to survive, but actually have a true chance of viability by herself. It'll be a fight, but at least it will be possible, and it should be possible.

 

[unmerged(11730)]

Hi,

Very interesting discussion. I just wondered, though: has anything been done about this in the EEP? What happens when you play that modification - are things still as bad? (sorry - I can't download it at the moment to see for myself).

Thanks!

 

[unmerged(9563)]

You know everyone's talking about 'Game balance', but what about when a Lithuania (or Poland) that's 2 CRTs ahead of Russia decides to take Novogrod and Samara? Its bound to happen in MP, and probably people will do it in SP too.

 

[stnylan]

In my EEP (v 1.2.5) game as Russia I found Poland to perform ok, until I got started anyway. As someone else said, and AI will nearly always loose in the long term to a human.

I don't know about 1.3+ though.

NKat

Good argument about the Deluge event change. Good reasoning. In fact you have a convert

 

[unmerged(7034)]

I agree with Kat that the Polish 1607 event is ideal as a turning point.

A little fact re the innovativeness factor: the Polish army is sometimes claimed to be the first to introduce ready-made cartridges for firearms. Fact is this took place beginning of the 16th century, same as in France.