Poland A Bit Too Underpowered

[Woreczko]

Latest patch

- Poland now have latin technology until the Union with Lithuania.

Weeee!
We have latin tech till UoL

What about tax and manpower additions, were they erased?

IMHO now Poland does not need more income or manpower.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by metroncho
Dantzig Polish, why?

Cause of the whole province population, say 500'000, perhaps half of the, say, 50'000 city inhabitants were German.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Now, only ruthenian culture after inheritance of Lithuania, and Danzig changed to Polish culture and i will be satisfied

Me too . Thanks for the mods as it is almost impossible to force any new changes. Of course we will try .

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by metroncho
Dantzig Polish, why?

Like DarthMaur said. Moreover many city-dwellers in Poland was of German origin. To keep the line most of Polish provs should be german. On the other hand to balance that Lvov was set orthodox/Polish what is as incorrect as German Danzig.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Re: Latest patch

Originally posted by Woreczko
Weeee!
We have latin tech till UoL

What about tax and manpower additions, were they erased?

IMHO now Poland does not need more income or manpower.

To answer some of your questions in one post:

There was 60k at Beresteczko. We have numbers taken from concentration of the army at Sokal two weeks before the battle. There was 27,3k mercenaries/regulars and about 30k of land movement. 2k of regulars were sent to cope with Napierski Rebellion but before battle the private forces of the king joined (most probably about 5k). In comparison Cossacks are counted on 80k while Tatars on 20-30k.

On the other hand it was 80k at Chocim (1621, half were Cossacks) while another 30-40k (there is a disagreement how much) was heading towars the southern border (in separate groups). Halted on the Chodkiewicz order, who had enough soldiers to defend the camp while more meant less food. These forces were gathered under personal command of the king in September and marched at Chocim after 24.09 when news about death of Chodkiewicz (he was above 70, hard life in sieged camp caused his death. The fact was hidden to keep morale. The command was taken by field hetman Stanislaw Lubomirski cause delphine Wladyslaw was sick too (febre)) reached the king.
In comparison Turks fielded about 100k army supported by 20-30k of Tatars. Sultan was present on the battlefield and it was for the first time that Ottomans army was defeated while under the personal command of the sultan.

In 1660-1661 campaign against Russia, another 40k army was fielded even if it was just after The Deluge. Have to mention that army was not paid and revolted later . Koniecpolski usually fielded about 25-30k main army against Swedes. Chodkiewicz had only 5k army at Kircholm, 1605 cause he sent many small units to control all the Inflanty and he was at flames with Radziwill not to mention the king. His foes apparentely wanted to see him losing.
Poland had no problem with fielding huge armies but with fielding it in a long run. Financial system was too weak. That's why Gustavus who lost many battles achieved very good deal in 1629 - Polish finances were exhausted.

I don't think that core polish provs were poorer than provs in Bohemia or Germany. Bohemia is somewhat tricky as it is usually treated like one province while it is 5 in the game. Let's check the income from Bohemia and compare to Poland. Then check historical sizes and incomes that should be 3 to 2 in favour of Poland in borders from 1370.

Btw, I'm happy about latin too. Corrected at last .

 

[N Katsyev]

What an absolutely wonderful way to begin my Sunday morning. "Oh there is a new patch, let's see what he's put in this one... oh... my... god.." Darth Maur's Ruthenian would be the icing on the cake, but it'll be good to play test like this as it is, see what we come up with. The reduction of the Orthodox penalty has probably made Latin a tad less of an improvement as it was at the beginning of the thread, but still should do its part in bringing Poland closer to her historical strength. At least, we have Poland with her justified tech level, for at least the beginning couple centuries of the game. And while i'll always feel she shouldn't lose it for historical tech purposes, the reason she must for balance purposes I understand completely, and will accept.

For Ruthenian culture, I might add i'd begin to point to 1607 once again. The nobles of the country were obessed with the idea of colonizing the vast expanses of the Ukraine and the Russian steppe, while ignored the need to use the Baltic ports for trade and development. The Kings at the time however understood the value of European interaction through the Baltic... Unfortunately, we all know who began to win this battle. With increasing Polish interference, colonization, etc, you began to have the cossack revolts. However i'm willing to bet if the Poles followed the more Baltic routine, they probably would not have had nearly as much trouble with the Cossacks. So maybe if Poland gets Ruthenian in UoL, she would lose it again in 1607 (only like 30 years later) if she didn't choose to exterminate the nobles. True, once again, we all know what option a human would pick, but at least this makes the player work a little for it, and take an ahistorical choice to keep it. (Much like the Russian greek event, which I still say needs counter-balancing so that Moscow isn't humilitated every time she's under a player other than me )

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Btw, both accepting and rejecting the union with Lithuania makes the techgroup orthodox.

Originally posted by N Katsyev
(Much like the Russian greek event, which I still say needs counter-balancing so that Moscow isn't humilitated every time she's under a player other than me )

Heh, i remember your reaction in Tsunami, when Wyvern have choosen that

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Btw, both accepting and rejecting the union with Lithuania makes the techgroup orthodox.


Heh, i remember your reaction in Tsunami, when Wyvern have choosen that

Hmm... i'd say if Poland were to reject, there would be nothing causing any "easternization" that many claim is the reason she should be dropped to Orthodox. Poland would just continue like any other western European country, definitely not a reason to strip her of Latin. And if, someone decided they'd think they were clever, reject, then try and conquer Lithuania... Well, they are missing a culture as well as a ton of cores, and it would be quite useless.

And yeah , I hate the way that event is set up now so that everyone and their brother choose to think that Constantinople is necessary. I think Russia should get cores on Azov, Kalmuk, Kuban with option A, at least to somewhat counter-balance the oh so often choice to humiliate Moscow.

 

[Varyar]

Seeing the latest changes to the betas, I'm happy to discover that Poland starts off with latin tech!

 

[Smirfy]

Polish Economy

Polish Economy

(And some knock on effects)


Naval Supplies

It seems oak was an important export of Poland and it was this oak that built the early ships of many European countries but when the Netherlands came into being the trade exploded with Danzig being the chief supplier of the Dutch. The Trade went on unabated till 1620 went the oak forests were completely exhausted. The trade from Danzig went down to 10% of what it was previously. It recovered some of that lost trade by the export of ash and pitch but not to the previous value of the oak trade.

Wheat

“The soul of trade” the Dutch called it, with Holland able to support only 1/8 of her population this was necessary and it came from Poland. The Mediterranean was also incapable of supporting itself and Polish grain fed these people too. But by 1650 the English with more efficient farming methods and importantly better strains of grain from the New World had the surplus of production to export and took over the supply to Holland, this must have been a severe blow to the Polish economy.

Transaction

As the method of payment evolved from barter and specie to promisary then eventually in the 17th century we see the birth of the “future” system of speculation on agriculture produce. With frequent wars and general instability in the Baltic region especially in Poland it was a financial risk that traders tended to back away from preferring to invest in regions with more stability and with COTs operating these new financial systems, this apparently is called market integration and was essential to keeping transaction costs down.

New World +Russia+Other Regions

Unfortunately for Poland these new areas exported largely the same produce as her compounding economic problems also with the British supplanting the Dutch as the chief maritime power from late 17C on and she had established and developing suppliers and did not rely on Poland.

Conclusion

There is a case for Poland to be better off initially. Its fortunes seem to be tied to the Dutch, the English navigation act, regional stability and the opening of new regions so I suggest that 1650-70 would be an approximated cut off point if any additional bonuses are considered.



Suggestions

I don’t think Poland would have been as backward trade wise initially so there could be a case for increasing the start level to 3 the same as Mecklenburg

If Danzig was the important trading centre it was having infrastructure 2 could have a case

I do not have Peter’s flair for numbers so have no idea whether they would unbalance things or not.


Find some way to reward Poland from the formation of Holland until 1650-70
(Holland and her dependency on Polish goods must have been like winning the lottery)


Also give the Danes a bonus to S/land from the formation of Holland to simulate the vast amount Dutch trade that went through the Sound

 

[unmerged(6881)]

@N Katsyev
Poland should start with ruthenian culture just like Lithuania but it will probably destroy the balance after other changes implemented. Most of the ruthenian provs should turn ukrainian in 1596-1648, but as we know no new events are to be added.
Conclusion - it's a dead case.

@Smirfy

Good analyses but you are right it may hamper the balance too much. Trade 3 is definitely too much cause it is very expensive level so it may boost Poland way ahead others. I personally think that Poland should start with trade 2 and infra 1. Poland was very good in trade in 1350's - 1380's in general (it is called golden age of Polish trade) (classical CoT in Lvov was created). Then shifted more to become producer of basic goods while leave profits from trade to agents. The tendency eneded with elimination of Poland as trade power later.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by vilkouak
@N Katsyev
Poland should start with ruthenian culture just like Lithuania but it will probably destroy the balance after other changes implemented. Most of the ruthenian provs should turn ukrainian in 1596-1648, but as we know no new events are to be added.
Conclusion - it's a dead case.

Actually, quite to the contrary, its the new changes which I believe make it more necessary than it was before. For one, the manpower/tax base changes were pretty minor, and didn't change a whole lot there. Secondly, the Orthodox tech group boost, means that Russia is only 10% (more due to religion, granted) from a tech level standpoint, behind Poland until UoL. Russia can make up this difference pretty easily with her greater wealth. Thirdly, with tax collectors becoming vital, Poland must absolutely begin to tax the Ukraine, however all these provinces are diffrerent culture/different religion, and some not even cores. Therefore the second Poland gets into a war and loses any stability really at all, we are talking instant rebel-driven meltdown in the Ukraine, which in itself would further destabalize the Russian provs, and we'd get revolts in the Protty provinces only a couple years later. Fourthly Poland desperately will need the extra manpower/income. The manpower itself becomes such a large concern, because Poland must protect the Ukrainian/Russia steppe, which are plains. And we all know that quantity really does beat quality when it comes to battles on the plains with cavalry. Moscow has a ridiculously large amount of manpower for such a small state she begins as, and with any expansion against the Eastern Khanates, it only grows. However Russia wouldn't be the only threat here, an Ottoman or a Swedish player would almost undoubtedly try and use a Russo-Polish war to try and gain some of their claimed provinces on Poland.

If you'll remember in the very beginning I was originally not in favour of Poland gainging Ruthenian, but as time as went on, and more changes came about, I've become much more convinced that Poland really should have it, and needs it.

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Cause of the whole province population, say 500'000, perhaps half of the, say, 50'000 city inhabitants were German.

But weren´t the areas surrounding Dantzig ( or Kónigsberg) pretty Germanized. That happened later, or didn´t happen at all?


PS And i think ruthenian would add a lot of interest to poland. Noteworthy some MP scenarios are using Ruthenian culture for Poland, so some conclusion can be extracted from there.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by metroncho
But weren´t the areas surrounding Dantzig ( or Kónigsberg) pretty Germanized. That happened later, or didn´t happen at all?


PS And i think ruthenian would add a lot of interest to poland. Noteworthy some MP scenarios are using Ruthenian culture for Poland, so some conclusion can be extracted from there.

There is Royal Prussia called Danzig-Pommerania too and Ducal Prussia with Konigsberg. The first was Polish territory since 10th cen., the later belonged to orginal Prussians. Teutons conquered the latter in 1242-1283 and the area germanized eventually. The turning point is 1525 when last rebellion of Prussians occured. After that date Ducal Prussia may be considered German.

Royal Prussia (the name was introduced to differ from Ducal Prussia after 1525) was almost always inhabited by vast majority of Poles. Germans were very rare outside cities and were outnumbered in the rural area even by Dutch who settled in very fertile delta of Vistula in 16th cen.

Problem with Danzig is that both Poland and Prussia (not Teutons) should get all income/no problem with it. But it is very hard to achieve.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Remember it's a game - betas are for testing the game not an endless debate on how to completely reflect all the elements of Polish culture. Let's test the game for the overall outcome of the changes to Poland.

Remember you got Latin tech for the Poles ahead of the Ottomans who arguably have a better case for the first 100 years.

And if we analyse all the things that made Poland great we ought to also ensure that the whole nation gets dismantled by 1790's.

Or is that too deterministic

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
Actually, quite to the contrary, its the new changes which I believe make it more necessary than it was before. For one, the manpower/tax base changes were pretty minor, and didn't change a whole lot there. Secondly, the Orthodox tech group boost, means that Russia is only 10% (more due to religion, granted) from a tech level standpoint, behind Poland until UoL. Russia can make up this difference pretty easily with her greater wealth. Thirdly, with tax collectors becoming vital, Poland must absolutely begin to tax the Ukraine, however all these provinces are diffrerent culture/different religion, and some not even cores. Therefore the second Poland gets into a war and loses any stability really at all, we are talking instant rebel-driven meltdown in the Ukraine, which in itself would further destabalize the Russian provs, and we'd get revolts in the Protty provinces only a couple years later. Fourthly Poland desperately will need the extra manpower/income. The manpower itself becomes such a large concern, because Poland must protect the Ukrainian/Russia steppe, which are plains. And we all know that quantity really does beat quality when it comes to battles on the plains with cavalry. Moscow has a ridiculously large amount of manpower for such a small state she begins as, and with any expansion against the Eastern Khanates, it only grows. However Russia wouldn't be the only threat here, an Ottoman or a Swedish player would almost undoubtedly try and use a Russo-Polish war to try and gain some of their claimed provinces on Poland.

If you'll remember in the very beginning I was originally not in favour of Poland gainging Ruthenian, but as time as went on, and more changes came about, I've become much more convinced that Poland really should have it, and needs it.

Without introduction of Ukrainian culture it is historically unjustified cause Poland should have serious problems with all southern ruthenian provs, low manpower there and low income too. The problem with ruthenian is not so easy like with latin tech cause it needs more complex changes. Anyway Poland gets ruthenian provs (except initial too) in UoL, so there should be no problem for MP player to save some money to build TC's while rebels, low income etc is more or less what happened IRL.

 

[Woreczko]

Re: Re: Latest patch

Originally posted by vilkouak
To answer some of your questions in one post:

There was 60k at Beresteczko. We have numbers taken from concentration of the army at Sokal two weeks before the battle. There was 27,3k mercenaries/regulars and about 30k of land movement. 2k of regulars were sent to cope with Napierski Rebellion but before battle the private forces of the king joined (most probably about 5k). In comparison Cossacks are counted on 80k while Tatars on 20-30k.

On the other hand it was 80k at Chocim (1621, half were Cossacks) while another 30-40k (there is a disagreement how much) was heading towars the southern border (in separate groups). Halted on the Chodkiewicz order, who had enough soldiers to defend the camp while more meant less food. These forces were gathered under personal command of the king in September and marched at Chocim after 24.09 when news about death of Chodkiewicz (he was above 70, hard life in sieged camp caused his death. The fact was hidden to keep morale. The command was taken by field hetman Stanislaw Lubomirski cause delphine Wladyslaw was sick too (febre)) reached the king.
In comparison Turks fielded about 100k army supported by 20-30k of Tatars. Sultan was present on the battlefield and it was for the first time that Ottomans army was defeated while under the personal command of the sultan.

In 1660-1661 campaign against Russia, another 40k army was fielded even if it was just after The Deluge. Have to mention that army was not paid and revolted later . Koniecpolski usually fielded about 25-30k main army against Swedes. Chodkiewicz had only 5k army at Kircholm, 1605 cause he sent many small units to control all the Inflanty and he was at flames with Radziwill not to mention the king. His foes apparentely wanted to see him losing.
Poland had no problem with fielding huge armies but with fielding it in a long run. Financial system was too weak. That's why Gustavus who lost many battles achieved very good deal in 1629 - Polish finances were exhausted.

I don't think that core polish provs were poorer than provs in Bohemia or Germany. Bohemia is somewhat tricky as it is usually treated like one province while it is 5 in the game. Let's check the income from Bohemia and compare to Poland. Then check historical sizes and incomes that should be 3 to 2 in favour of Poland in borders from 1370.

Btw, I'm happy about latin too. Corrected at last .

Because I have a trust in your knowledge, I`m calling off my ignorant post, as I`ve promised. (still 60k at Beresteczko, not 100k )

However are you sure about those figures? Were blind portions, non existent companions (pocztowi), companions who are only servants, etc. taken into account? And how did they count irregular Cossacks?

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by vilkouak
There is Royal Prussia called Danzig-Pommerania too and Ducal Prussia with Konigsberg. The first was Polish territory since 10th cen., the later belonged to orginal Prussians. Teutons conquered the latter in 1242-1283 and the area germanized eventually. The turning point is 1525 when last rebellion of Prussians occured. After that date Ducal Prussia may be considered German.

Royal Prussia (the name was introduced to differ from Ducal Prussia after 1525) was almost always inhabited by vast majority of Poles. Germans were very rare outside cities and were outnumbered in the rural area even by Dutch who settled in very fertile delta of Vistula in 16th cen.

Problem with Danzig is that both Poland and Prussia (not Teutons) should get all income/no problem with it. But it is very hard to achieve.

What should be added is that Royal Prussia is Danzig province, and Ducal Prussia is Prussia province.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Without introduction of Ukrainian culture it is historically unjustified cause Poland should have serious problems with all southern ruthenian provs, low manpower there and low income too. The problem with ruthenian is not so easy like with latin tech cause it needs more complex changes. Anyway Poland gets ruthenian provs (except initial too) in UoL, so there should be no problem for MP player to save some money to build TC's while rebels, low income etc is more or less what happened IRL.

Well, i actually don't agree. Low manpower from Ukraine?? Rather the opposite.

I was really disappointed that there were no events at all concerning Cossacks uprising in PLC when EU 2 came out.

Ruthenian culture could be removed in second Liberum Veto event, which happens in 1653-60 period.

Btw, what is really needed to help AI is to delete tax decreases from XV century events. Not only they aren't really justified, they are way too severe. (Human player will avoid them anyway, taking ahistorical options)

 

[unmerged(4730)]

well well well

ruthenian culture?...
u mean those cossacks which never went into the polish
army constantly uprose polish rule and defyed to be ever
converted into catholisism?

or maybe the one who finally help bring down the polish reign
by slaughtering afew hundred thousand of those settlers?

oh u mean in ur dreams?
this would be so ahistorical it would border crackpottery...

And oh yes those cossacks which rights were constantly
harrased and whos land was almost confiscated by
the commonwealth in order to incorporate them?...

basicly if this is done there will be a huge unbalance.
there already ahistorical things in the game like ....
polotsk was russian ... so was
welikia , mozyr and chernigov ... but those were changed
to boost lith/poland a little bit at the expense of hurting russia.
I m 100 percent sure welikia and polotsk were russian, chernigov i know was ukranian for sure basicly 100 percent... mozyr is a tossup between russia/ukraine but no way is it lithuanian.