It all varies from player to player I guess.
In SP Poland usually does great in my games, unless I play one of the neighbours.
My problem is always the underperformance of Denmark and Ottoman Empire
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It all varies from player to player I guess.
In SP Poland usually does great in my games, unless I play one of the neighbours.
My problem is always the underperformance of Denmark and Ottoman Empire
You might be right. I usually observe Poland's performance in the game that's why I see that she usually is destroyed in a very unhistorical way. You gave Danemark as a example. I pay little attention to Danemark and wouldn't say she is undepowered cause when I look on the map, Danemark still exists on it.
My obervations are mostly based on SP games and I can say that Poland in SP is usually very weak.
Ok, i've posted the link to that old thread of mine in the Nation Setup MP thread, but here is the first post of it, in which i summarized the idea:
Obviously, it only suits MP as ai inflation is tied to human. Btw-those events are mainly crippling Poland from 1600 on, but it means we can easily boost it in the beginning, Latin culture, wealth incraese and whatnot. All in MP though.
Originally posted by DarthMaur
But before i will start scripting them, i want to know your opinion. (ah, and i don't want to post this in Central Europe EEP to stay strictly on topic here and there)
In short.
Historical Background:
Poland, and later Commonwealth Kings had big problems with money. Yes, i know every king has problem with them, but it was nothing compared to what hapenned here. Royal possesions ended in hands of the Magnates (high nobility), while Sejm(Diet), composed of szlachta representatives(middle and lower) nobles continiously rejected any taxes.
Results? While country itself experienced quick economic and demographic growth, royal income was getting smaller and smaller (with some exceptions).
How it was reflected in EU I? Commonwealth provinces were among the poorest in Europe. Which made the problem, that they remained poor after, for example, Russia conquered them. Which resulted in fact, that the real and only strenght of Russia came from Siberia, not Ukraine and other lands conquered from Commonwealth.
How it is handled in EU II? Same as before, plus some events. And those events,eh... they miss the point. Sure, there are some decentralization events, but we would need decentralization slider at -30
So there are some events reducing tax values even more. But the previous problem still stands, as with another-now, we could, through the event engine, reflect the fact that the country could be turned into centralized, hereditary monarchy(which hapenned, anyway. In 1792...too late)But there aren't any events raising taxvalue. Not to mention, that it wouldn't solve the previous problem.
And yes, now you can see 0 tax value provinces in the middle of Europe
So, i though about it, and came up with two solution.
Firs, which i think is worse.
On the January 1st of every year, event which will lower the treasury. This have some problmes, and i think that second solution is way better.
Inflation:
Excellent. It raises costs for everything (thus effectively making your income smaller), is country-wise (thus, other countries conquering your provinces won't get penalties), hard to lower(only through random events, which also can raise it, and governors, which are scarce for non-colonials). And, it can be coded into random events!
The only two problems are:
Tech research. There is no reason to slow Poland tech research by this. But there is small solution to offset it-Poland can be moved into latin tech group, which should negate most of my events effects.
And, while game effects are excelllent, it doesnt' sount too historical
Those events happen every few years, when historical privileges were given to nobles. They generally raise stability, aristocracy and lower centralization. When you try to oppose, you are really have to be prepared to deal with revolts, stability loss, and some other nice stuff
There is a way to avoid it. If you attain high centralization score (by DP reforms, but mainly by rejecting demands of nobles...), next event is triggered. And you have the choice to "wage the war of extermination on nobility"
So, any thoughs?
Obviously, it only suits MP as ai inflation is tied to human. Btw-those events are mainly crippling Poland from 1600 on, but it means we can easily boost it in the beginning, Latin culture, wealth incraese and whatnot. All in MP though.
It would seem that Johan is making a couple of changes that will help Poland.
Latest Patch
- Orthodox techgroup is now at 90% of latin instead of 80% as previous.
- Some polish provinces are now slightly richer and have more manpower.
Latest Patch
- Orthodox techgroup is now at 90% of latin instead of 80% as previous.
- Some polish provinces are now slightly richer and have more manpower.
I've checked the changes. (old values, plus increase)
Krakow: Tax 12+1, manpower 6+1
Wielkopolska Tax 10+2. manpower4+2
Danzig manpower 4+1
Poznan manpower 4+1
I think i haven't missed anything.
Krakow: Tax 12+1, manpower 6+1
Wielkopolska Tax 10+2. manpower4+2
Danzig manpower 4+1
Poznan manpower 4+1
I think i haven't missed anything.
I don`t want to discourage Johan in any way from fixing polish stuff but IMHO latest changes aren`t going in good direction . Tax values in polish provs were appropiate or even too high IMO in 1419 at least. AFAIK Poland was in general poorer and not so populous as Germany, Bohemia or even Hungary, while in latest patch polish provs are on par with german ones. Besides, low income is historical for Poland, it`s military tech which sucks and stupid tax lowering events. Those events fire in random provs, so you may receive -6 tax due to single event in single province with bad luck. I fear that new orthodox tech speed (90%) won`t solve the matter, Russia will still prevail in the Eastern Europe
So I vote for lower tax values but latin tech till Union of Lublin (or through the whole game if Poland don`t inherit Lithuania)
. Tax values in polish provs were appropiate or even too high IMO in 1419 at least. AFAIK Poland was in general poorer and not so populous as Germany, Bohemia or even Hungary, while in latest patch polish provs are on par with german ones. Besides, low income is historical for Poland, it`s military tech which sucks and stupid tax lowering events. Those events fire in random provs, so you may receive -6 tax due to single event in single province with bad luck. I fear that new orthodox tech speed (90%) won`t solve the matter, Russia will still prevail in the Eastern EuropeSo I vote for lower tax values but latin tech till Union of Lublin (or through the whole game if Poland don`t inherit Lithuania)
New orthodox tech speed helps bigger countries as much as smaller, so its effectively helping Russia and Ottos more than Poland.Originally posted by Woreczko
I don`t want to discourage Johan in any way from fixing polish stuff but IMHO latest changes aren`t going in good direction
So I vote for lower tax values but latin tech till Union of Lublin (or through the whole game if Poland don`t inherit Lithuania)
I agree, I commend the effort, but I think what was done here has further actually weakened Poland. Russia will benefit more from the boost to Ortho tech group than will Poland. I think the tax values were fine without so many tax value decreases through events. Manpower boosts were good, however a boost to Galicia should be included, as at least during the time of partition I know, this was the most populated area of the country.
My biggest fear however is the new tax collecting system. Poland is absolutely loaded with non culture/non religion provinces, especially post-inheritance. Even pre-inheritance Poland has Podolia and Danzig. Sooo, if we make it necessary for tax collectors to be in, for taxes to be collected, Poland is up the creek without a paddle. The revolts could get a little iffy at times before, just simply due to non-religous, non-culture, and the usual 3 religions within the borders, throw a tax collector in the mix and the Ukrainian and Russian provinces are gonna be spilling over with pissed off peasants.
And while its all fine and good to just not put tax collectors in, in the first place. Russia can, and the Ottomans can, and above the capacity of both of those is Sweden, at least in their culture provs, which for both of them are much more extensive than the Polish/Lithuanian, so we have Poland with a large tax reduction she didn't have before in comparison with her rivals. MM made a good suggestion about recieving a certain minimal percentage in your core provinces, I think he said 50%... I'm not sure if this could be a good alternative or not. And even still Poland would be losing out as the eastern provinces of the Ukraine, Odessa, and two of the Russian provs she inherits all aren't cores. In fact with the Ortho tech change, i'm not sure if Latin in itself will turn out to have the effect it did before in keeping her stronger, longer... Anyway, it will all have to be play tested, and this is all speculation at the moment. However i'd be interested in what the thoughts of others would be.
My biggest fear however is the new tax collecting system. Poland is absolutely loaded with non culture/non religion provinces, especially post-inheritance. Even pre-inheritance Poland has Podolia and Danzig. Sooo, if we make it necessary for tax collectors to be in, for taxes to be collected, Poland is up the creek without a paddle. The revolts could get a little iffy at times before, just simply due to non-religous, non-culture, and the usual 3 religions within the borders, throw a tax collector in the mix and the Ukrainian and Russian provinces are gonna be spilling over with pissed off peasants.
And while its all fine and good to just not put tax collectors in, in the first place. Russia can, and the Ottomans can, and above the capacity of both of those is Sweden, at least in their culture provs, which for both of them are much more extensive than the Polish/Lithuanian, so we have Poland with a large tax reduction she didn't have before in comparison with her rivals. MM made a good suggestion about recieving a certain minimal percentage in your core provinces, I think he said 50%... I'm not sure if this could be a good alternative or not. And even still Poland would be losing out as the eastern provinces of the Ukraine, Odessa, and two of the Russian provs she inherits all aren't cores. In fact with the Ortho tech change, i'm not sure if Latin in itself will turn out to have the effect it did before in keeping her stronger, longer... Anyway, it will all have to be play tested, and this is all speculation at the moment. However i'd be interested in what the thoughts of others would be.
Nit
No. It's actually helping Poland just as much as it's helping the Ottos and Russia -- a ten percent boost.
What it doesn't do is provide Poland with some way to increase his power/wealth the way the aforementioned two nations can. There is still a need for revisiting the Polish events imho.
No. It's actually helping Poland just as much as it's helping the Ottos and Russia -- a ten percent boost.
What it doesn't do is provide Poland with some way to increase his power/wealth the way the aforementioned two nations can. There is still a need for revisiting the Polish events imho.
Everyone has to buy those tax collectors, not just Poland. Imagine a wartime France or England in the beggining of the GC during the 100 years. Might be a little painful.
And although I may be wrong, I don't think that many of the Eastern Lithuanian provinces were Catholic ever.
Poland is actually easier than most people think, too. With some of the strongest diplo-monarchs early in the game, its easy to diplo vassalize/annex Pommern, Mecklemberg, and Bohemia. (Actually, force-vassalize the first two.)
And yes, Poland got the exact same 10% (actually, its 12.50 I think....) increase in tech speed as Russia, Ottomans, Croatians, Hungarians, any everyone else did.
And although I may be wrong, I don't think that many of the Eastern Lithuanian provinces were Catholic ever.
Poland is actually easier than most people think, too. With some of the strongest diplo-monarchs early in the game, its easy to diplo vassalize/annex Pommern, Mecklemberg, and Bohemia. (Actually, force-vassalize the first two.)
And yes, Poland got the exact same 10% (actually, its 12.50 I think....) increase in tech speed as Russia, Ottomans, Croatians, Hungarians, any everyone else did.
Re: Nit
Okay, okay. I should have said the new patch in general helps Ottos and Russia more than Poland.
*edit* And as far as Poland being easy, any country is easy in SP. It can be easy in SP without going on insane diplo-annexation sprees in Bohemia and Germany. But then, as you say, its early in the game you get these wonderful diplo monarchs. Most people start their games in 1492, especially in MP.
Okay, okay.
I should have said the new patch in general helps Ottos and Russia more than Poland. *edit* And as far as Poland being easy, any country is easy in SP. It can be easy in SP without going on insane diplo-annexation sprees in Bohemia and Germany. But then, as you say, its early in the game you get these wonderful diplo monarchs. Most people start their games in 1492, especially in MP.
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Poland orthodox tech?Huh.
i just can't stand some people's remarks here.
Let's bring facts.
1) "Poland never fielded hugae armies". Huh? 100.000 soldiers at Beresteczko. usually about 40-60.000 at other wars. Compared to other countries this were huge numbers
2) "Poland never faced westernbcountries". Huh? In XV century Poland fought with Habsburgs few times, over succesion in Bohemia and Hungary. Teutonic Order also was rather western army, with many western mercenaries and guest-knights. In XVI century: what happened to western army at Byczyna again? It didn't exactly won, right? In XVII century: what happened to western mercearies and western trained armies in 1634 at Smolensk? What happened to Swedes at Kircholm or other less famous battles? And calling Ottomans less advanced thanwest, when they faced first major defeat in 1683 and had one of bst oif not the best infantry andartillery earlier is some kind of mistake.
Later in XVII century Polish army was more modern than western ones. Polish infantry did not use obsolete pikiniers formation which had no chance against Polish hussary, and had higher fire rate and lower numbers; Paper cartridges, which BTW were imported somehwere from south, were used in Poland some 50 years before introduction in West. Not to mention concepts as divisions, mobile artillery, basic rocketry, cavalry tactics (who invented uhlans after all?), combination of different kind of arms, tabor tactics which was highly effective in eastern kind of terrain etc etc.
There is reason why for example Polishg Lisowczycy were such needed mercenary units - what happened BTW during White Mountain battle when thye faced "modern western army"?
Poland didn;t decline because of tech, it declined not because of armies (winning war against Rakoczy, Muscovy, Cossacks, Prussia amd Sweden fought simultanously is quite impressive: essentially all wars agaisnt Teutonic Order were won; wars against Ottomans (yes, Ottomans since at Chocim we regular Ottoman army) were won.
Poland declined because:
a) utter absurd pacifism of gentry (famous reply when Wladyslaw IV wanted to attackTurkey: "you wa nt to conquer lands at Dunay? And to whom they will belong, to our republic or to your highness?". The on;ly agressive war was against Russia during Smuta, and it started as private enterprise.
b) distrust of gentry against the king
c) too big area, so Poland regularly fought two front wars
d) gentry refusing to pay taxes (again: not trusting king and pacifism).
Events should model this kind of things.
szopen
BTW: someone mentioned that Poland is easy; f*, i had to gave up to my friend EUII i borrowed, but until now i played 5 times and every time i ended in four front war, endless revolts (sometimes 6 revolts in one year in one province) and devastating fires, sighted meteors, nobles etc etc. Am i really that weak?
i just can't stand some people's remarks here.
Let's bring facts.
1) "Poland never fielded hugae armies". Huh? 100.000 soldiers at Beresteczko. usually about 40-60.000 at other wars. Compared to other countries this were huge numbers
2) "Poland never faced westernbcountries". Huh? In XV century Poland fought with Habsburgs few times, over succesion in Bohemia and Hungary. Teutonic Order also was rather western army, with many western mercenaries and guest-knights. In XVI century: what happened to western army at Byczyna again? It didn't exactly won, right? In XVII century: what happened to western mercearies and western trained armies in 1634 at Smolensk? What happened to Swedes at Kircholm or other less famous battles? And calling Ottomans less advanced thanwest, when they faced first major defeat in 1683 and had one of bst oif not the best infantry andartillery earlier is some kind of mistake.
Later in XVII century Polish army was more modern than western ones. Polish infantry did not use obsolete pikiniers formation which had no chance against Polish hussary, and had higher fire rate and lower numbers; Paper cartridges, which BTW were imported somehwere from south, were used in Poland some 50 years before introduction in West. Not to mention concepts as divisions, mobile artillery, basic rocketry, cavalry tactics (who invented uhlans after all?), combination of different kind of arms, tabor tactics which was highly effective in eastern kind of terrain etc etc.
There is reason why for example Polishg Lisowczycy were such needed mercenary units - what happened BTW during White Mountain battle when thye faced "modern western army"?
Poland didn;t decline because of tech, it declined not because of armies (winning war against Rakoczy, Muscovy, Cossacks, Prussia amd Sweden fought simultanously is quite impressive: essentially all wars agaisnt Teutonic Order were won; wars against Ottomans (yes, Ottomans since at Chocim we regular Ottoman army) were won.
Poland declined because:
a) utter absurd pacifism of gentry (famous reply when Wladyslaw IV wanted to attackTurkey: "you wa nt to conquer lands at Dunay? And to whom they will belong, to our republic or to your highness?". The on;ly agressive war was against Russia during Smuta, and it started as private enterprise.
b) distrust of gentry against the king
c) too big area, so Poland regularly fought two front wars
d) gentry refusing to pay taxes (again: not trusting king and pacifism).
Events should model this kind of things.
szopen
BTW: someone mentioned that Poland is easy; f*, i had to gave up to my friend EUII i borrowed, but until now i played 5 times and every time i ended in four front war, endless revolts (sometimes 6 revolts in one year in one province) and devastating fires, sighted meteors, nobles etc etc. Am i really that weak?
Re: Poland orthodox tech?Huh.
Devastating fires, Sighted Meteors, Nobility events are all random and can happen to anyone.
For you to be fighting a 4 front war, you have to be ahistorically aggressive.
No one's standing in your way from making a Historic poland, but if your goal is to annex russia or whatever, Yeah, you'll encounter trouble.
Devastating fires, Sighted Meteors, Nobility events are all random and can happen to anyone.
For you to be fighting a 4 front war, you have to be ahistorically aggressive.
No one's standing in your way from making a Historic poland, but if your goal is to annex russia or whatever, Yeah, you'll encounter trouble.
First off, welcome to the boards. Secondly, great post in which you pretty much summed up most of the major justifications we've been giving for the past 300 posts. It amazes me that people will still doubt Poland's justification for having Latin tech, when at least militarily most states in the game already with Latin tech would have a very difficult time putting up such a concerete arguement for having it. I do think however for the most part we have shown that there is, in fact, a problem here that needs to be addressed. Some attempts at addressing this problem were made during the latest balancing patch, with sligh tax and manpower increases in Polish provinces, which are greatly appreciated.
With the latest change to Orthodox techgroup, making it less "backward" i'm thinking maybe Latin tech isn't quite needed as much as it was, however remains compeletely justified. However if for other balance purposes we are not going to include that. Then I think the addition of Ruthenian culture could go a long way to helping Poland become what she should be. With Ruthenian culture Poland (especially with the new tax system) could probably raise a fair amount more taxes from these provinces, and also have a much better chance of converting them. Poland's number of non-religious and/or non-culture provinces is one of her chief weaknesses, if we can soften the blow from this, we could take a good step forward in the right direction.
Secondly, great post in which you pretty much summed up most of the major justifications we've been giving for the past 300 posts. It amazes me that people will still doubt Poland's justification for having Latin tech, when at least militarily most states in the game already with Latin tech would have a very difficult time putting up such a concerete arguement for having it. I do think however for the most part we have shown that there is, in fact, a problem here that needs to be addressed. Some attempts at addressing this problem were made during the latest balancing patch, with sligh tax and manpower increases in Polish provinces, which are greatly appreciated.With the latest change to Orthodox techgroup, making it less "backward" i'm thinking maybe Latin tech isn't quite needed as much as it was, however remains compeletely justified. However if for other balance purposes we are not going to include that. Then I think the addition of Ruthenian culture could go a long way to helping Poland become what she should be. With Ruthenian culture Poland (especially with the new tax system) could probably raise a fair amount more taxes from these provinces, and also have a much better chance of converting them. Poland's number of non-religious and/or non-culture provinces is one of her chief weaknesses, if we can soften the blow from this, we could take a good step forward in the right direction.
Szopen, you've been way to agressive if you end up with a 4-front war. My guess if you've gotten into BB wars or something.
And, also to you, there are events about the Magnates, Sjem, Liberetum Veto, but the problem is they give you high aristocracy, low centralization, and I think more land and mercantilism. All those sliders actually help, more than they hurt. Lower centralization helps keep WE lower, high aristocracy and land gives you great, cheap cavalry to run all over Central and Eastern Europe with, and Mercantilism... well... Ican't think of anything good for mercantilism besides the fact that it makes Poland's merchants cheap to place. (Which is probably good for a country like Poland.)
And, also to you, there are events about the Magnates, Sjem, Liberetum Veto, but the problem is they give you high aristocracy, low centralization, and I think more land and mercantilism. All those sliders actually help, more than they hurt. Lower centralization helps keep WE lower, high aristocracy and land gives you great, cheap cavalry to run all over Central and Eastern Europe with, and Mercantilism... well... Ican't think of anything good for mercantilism besides the fact that it makes Poland's merchants cheap to place. (Which is probably good for a country like Poland.)
it will be interseting to see how the new ortho rate helps but kat presented what is always one of my largest complaints about the ortho tech group It is almost impossible for poland or the ottomans to keep up with their historical (actual or as represented in various EU2 scenario starting values) tech progress unless that is the focus of their entire country. Clearly military advancement was not singlemindedly chased after in this time period by any state and it is pretty damn hard in SP for a person to get the ottomans or poland 6 land tech by 1492 if you keep your sliders balanced and the ai never does same thing with other dates
Re: Poland orthodox tech?Huh.
Well don`t take it offensive but IMHO your presentation of "facts" is a bit biased.
1) I doubt a little in this figures. No, I don`t know exact numbers, but I would guess that there were no more than 40k men at Beresteczko and Warszawa, about 4k at Chocim and 10k on average during most campaigns (not counting non-combatants, like whores, merchants, smiths, etc.) Still, if you provide trustfull sources, I shall call this off .
2) Yeah, Poles faced western armies and had their butt seriously kicked a few times also, like during Potop 1655 AD They won many battles but not so many wars.
And IMHO awful administration, ineficcient taxation system, inability to field large armies old dated structure of national cavalry regiments (system towarzyski) and xenofobic attitude of nobility IS a sign of backwardness. Nevertheless in 1419 and 1492 they should start in latim techgroup.
Well don`t take it offensive
but IMHO your presentation of "facts" is a bit biased.1) I doubt a little in this figures. No, I don`t know exact numbers, but I would guess that there were no more than 40k men at Beresteczko and Warszawa, about 4k at Chocim and 10k on average during most campaigns (not counting non-combatants, like whores, merchants, smiths, etc.) Still, if you provide trustfull sources, I shall call this off
.2) Yeah, Poles faced western armies and had their butt seriously kicked a few times also, like during Potop 1655 AD
They won many battles but not so many wars. And IMHO awful administration, ineficcient taxation system, inability to field large armies old dated structure of national cavalry regiments (system towarzyski) and xenofobic attitude of nobility IS a sign of backwardness. Nevertheless in 1419 and 1492 they should start in latim techgroup.
Now, only ruthenian culture after inheritance of Lithuania, and Danzig changed to Polish culture and i will be satisfied
Originally posted by DarthMaur
Now, only ruthenian culture after inheritance of Lithuania, and Danzig changed to Polish culture and i will be satisfied
Dantzig Polish, why?
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