Poland A Bit Too Underpowered

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Mowers
Poland has to stay in Orthodox tech or you are playing with fire.

Poland has always declined remarkably "well" in game as far as I can see in the tests I have run.

If there are ahistorical elements to change there must be other ways.

It would be good to hear your propositions. You are probably the most experienced MP player here.
Only MP reasons can convince me since in SP Poland led by ai is such a disaster.

@Duma

Every Russian player should wait at least for 1550's to launch successful attack against Poland led by himself if not in good alliance. There are coalitions and other living player in MP who can help Russia destroy Poland is this would be a wish as soon as in the beginning of the game.

Have you ever seen Spanish, French, Habsburgian, English whatever player attacking in MP without good alliances? I mean serious games not a tries like "let's see if they allow to conquer Europe with France".

Technically English player has no chances against France if standalone. The same Austria. so what's wrong with small and backwarded Russia having no chance against Poland during first 100 years of the game?

I have to repeat that weakness of Russia has nothing in common with Poland but russian ai inability to roll over khanates. The way to make the game better is to give more power and make better ai's for Ottos, Poland and Russia not to keep them all weak cause Russian ai is unable to become great.

 

[Mowers]

I didnt mean to put a downer on the topic just that from my experience Poland does "ok". I dont really play SP so I probably know less than most about how well it does.

I do understand the frustration of not being able to change Poland's destiny but there seem to be proponents for every country wanting a better tech group if they are not tier 1 already. The problem with changing the tech groupings is that you are attempting to change the basic model which would cause all sorts of issues (which is why I say it would be playing with fire)

Part of the problem is that we are reaching the outer boundries of what EU2 is capable of without significant overhaul which will not happen as it would require EU3.

But like I've said before if you want change then you will need to work for it and that requires running literally dozens of hands off games, recording the evidence and making notes. Running a couple isnt good enough, you need to identify a trend and point it out.

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by Mowers
I didnt mean to put a downer on the topic just that from my experience Poland does "ok". I dont really play SP so I probably know less than most about how well it does.

I do understand the frustration of not being able to change Poland's destiny but there seem to be proponents for every country wanting a better tech group if they are not tier 1 already. The problem with changing the tech groupings is that you are attempting to change the basic model which would cause all sorts of issues (which is why I say it would be playing with fire)

Part of the problem is that we are reaching the outer boundries of what EU2 is capable of without significant overhaul which will not happen as it would require EU3.

But like I've said before if you want change then you will need to work for it and that requires running literally dozens of hands off games, recording the evidence and making notes. Running a couple isnt good enough, you need to identify a trend and point it out.

I totaly agree

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Mowers
I didnt mean to put a downer on the topic just that from my experience Poland does "ok". I dont really play SP so I probably know less than most about how well it does.

I do understand the frustration of not being able to change Poland's destiny but there seem to be proponents for every country wanting a better tech group if they are not tier 1 already. The problem with changing the tech groupings is that you are attempting to change the basic model which would cause all sorts of issues (which is why I say it would be playing with fire)

Part of the problem is that we are reaching the outer boundries of what EU2 is capable of without significant overhaul which will not happen as it would require EU3.

But like I've said before if you want change then you will need to work for it and that requires running literally dozens of hands off games, recording the evidence and making notes. Running a couple isnt good enough, you need to identify a trend and point it out.

I definitely do understand your point here. Unfortunately, the problem here isn't SP play as much as it is MP play, in SP a human Poland can and will stay pretty much in the lead group tech-wise, aside from maybe the Dutch, who are usually at the top. However, MP is the problem, and "running dozens of tests" recording them, etc. in MP games would take months, years even. The problem basically is that in MP play, Poland is truly a non-entity, where it should be one of the most powerful countries for at least the first two centuries of the game. Human Poland vs. Human Russia in 1620, shouldn't really be much of a contest, unless Russia has friends helping out on another front, or Poland is rocking with inner instability.

Quite unfortunately, in MP, the main reason for her lack of success, is the ability of almost every other country to become ahistorically powerful very early. Poland however doesen't have any AI gorging capabilities without drawing the malcontent of her fellow players, and then even her only direction is northwest into Germany, all non-culture, non-religion. While England can make discoveries and colonies early, Spain can have all of Central and South America colonized and conquered with pretty significant ease, Austria can start a diplo-annexing spree in Germany, etc. Poland has none of these options, she is a status-qou power, and in MP play this destroys her much earlier than need be. Sticking her in a tech group that has no real historical justification for the first 200 years definitely does not help either, nor do the killer events, or sub-par dp settings. The tech group at least, we have historical justification for bumping her up to the top, and even just this change could go a long way to keeping her competitive, longer, whe she needs to be able to do to correctly simulate the historical situation of the East. I'm sure that many people would like to play a Poland with her historical strength in MP, but as it stands, they are just waiting for the first few decades to end, at which point they are at the mercy of those around them.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Smirfy
I totaly agree

Also it is no problem at the start of the game I think. The problems come later on when all hit 31 land tech. But connecting latin tech with the evil liberum veto events would be an idea maybe. Or with the Lithuanian inheritance.

 

[unmerged(3158)]

Originally posted by vilkouak
@Duma

Every Russian player should wait at least for 1550's to launch successful attack against Poland led by himself if not in good alliance. There are coalitions and other living player in MP who can help Russia destroy Poland is this would be a wish as soon as in the beginning of the game.

Wait until 1550's all the time? Since when does Russia need to wait until Poland is ready to take them on? 1550's is damn close to her time of inheriting Lithuania and when she does, well now she controls her destiny from there. Its kind of obvious you think Russia should never challenge Poland until after she inherits Lithuania when in MP the dynamics of the game should allow human players as much mobility and choices.

You see that is the problem I have with you Poland enthusiasts. You don't give a damn about MP dynamics, you don't care about how it will effect a long term game. And you certainly are only thinking how it will benift you and the nation you play.

However you look at it, Poland should never have any easy time of inheriting Lithuania. Need I make this very clear? There should always be conflict and allowing your major archrival to grow to epidemic size would be bad for a Russian player.

The way it stands, people want all the candy for Poland and honestly if Poland did not get her event files changed, but if the only thing Poland gained was Latin tech. That would in the end make all the difference. And you know what? We all know this, and you trying to force the perception that Poland should keep latin tech throughout the game when Poland in reality declined heavily is quite obtuse on your part.

Duma

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Duma
Wait until 1550's all the time? Since when does Russia need to wait until Poland is ready to take them on? 1550's is damn close to her time of inheriting Lithuania and when she does, well now she controls her destiny from there. Its kind of obvious you think Russia should never challenge Poland until after she inherits Lithuania when in MP the dynamics of the game should allow human players as much mobility and choices.

You see that is the problem I have with you Poland enthusiasts. You don't give a damn about MP dynamics, you don't care about how it will effect a long term game. And you certainly are only thinking how it will benift you and the nation you play.

However you look at it, Poland should never have any easy time of inheriting Lithuania. Need I make this very clear? There should always be conflict and allowing your major archrival to grow to epidemic size would be bad for a Russian player.

The way it stands, people want all the candy for Poland and honestly if Poland did not get her event files changed, but if the only thing Poland gained was Latin tech. That would in the end make all the difference. And you know what? We all know this, and you trying to force the perception that Poland should keep latin tech throughout the game when Poland in reality declined heavily is quite obtuse on your part.

Duma

You are really agressive and I don´t understand why at all. Anyway Poland was one of the strongest states and only the really bad idea that a elected king is a good king ruined that state.

Remember the same happened with the HRE when they began electing their kings. The kings tend to loose too much power while the Aristocracy ruls the country.

That´s what wrecked poland and nothing else.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Duma
Wait until 1550's all the time? Since when does Russia need to wait until Poland is ready to take them on? 1550's is damn close to her time of inheriting Lithuania and when she does, well now she controls her destiny from there. Its kind of obvious you think Russia should never challenge Poland until after she inherits Lithuania when in MP the dynamics of the game should allow human players as much mobility and choices.

Could it possibly be that Vilkouak was pointing out that the idea of a Russia independently challenging Poland before 1550 is a historical absurdity rather than being an intransigent Poland-lover?

Your argument, indeed, goes a long way to support his position. If poor and backwards Russia (which only forms in 1520), can rise to a position such that she alone without allies can threaten Poland one on one in the early to mid sixteenth century before the act of union, no matter what Poland achieves in the meantime [assuming a 1492 start here, as 1419 is too unpredictable], then Poland is definitely too weak at that time seen from a historical point of view.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Mowers
Poland has to stay in Orthodox tech or you are playing with fire.

Poland has always declined remarkably "well" in game as far as I can see in the tests I have run.

If there are ahistorical elements to change there must be other ways.

Mowers, when you usually want to drop Poland? In 1620? Isn't it during the high-time of Polish power?

 

[unmerged(15623)]

You shouldn't forget Duma that for the first two centuries of the game Poland was the Great power of the north. Then for the next century it would be Sweden and in the last century Russia should grow to a great power status. Russia is grossly overpowered compared to Poland in the game, but then again Sweden is overpowered too. So why not make Poland at least as powerful as historically?

IMO Poland shouldn't even start showing signs of possible weakness until end of the 17th century, and if not taken down in the mid-late 18th she should recover.

Would make playing as Sweden much more intresting...

 

[unmerged(2833)]

And well, as MP comes, i have two stories.


First, we were playing 12+ player game today.

Guess which country was taken last, and we had to force latecomers to take it? Poland. People kept selecting Brandenburg, Venice, Papal States, that sort of stuff.

Second, we're starting other game, when i plan to be Russia. So, here's what i suggested for Poland (i don't really want to have abyss west to me, at least not until late XVII century)

The second suggestion is changing Poland. I'd suggest, in order of importance

a1)change techrgoup for Latin, lost at inheritance of lithuania
a2)gain ruthenian at inheritance of lithuania
b)gain baltic at the same event or TO demise
c)change danzig culture to polish (yeah, that hurts brandenburg)
d)extend the southeasternmost cores (basically getting back to pre-1.05 ones, include krementjug, poltava and jedisan)

i think with all that Poland could be nice to play (notice that i want to play Russia, btw)

Duma, Poland inherits Lithania in 1567. In 1540, Russia get CBs west on Volga, in 1560 east of it. Taking out Golden Horde is two years at most, and those provinces are strenghtening Russia more than Lithuania is strenghtening Poland.

 

[metroncho]

I´m dubious about changing Dantzig culture and to give Poland Baltic as state culture.

Your other suggestion seems right to me .

 

[unmerged(9895)]

this wouldnt be a history game if Poland didnt get crushed by its enemies would it???

make poland stronger and then more often than not you will see it control more than half the HRE

but its manpower could be upped a little

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by KrisKannon
this wouldnt be a history game if Poland didnt get crushed by its enemies would it???

make poland stronger and then more often than not you will see it control more than half the HRE

but its manpower could be upped a little

I see no reason at all why Spain and the Ottoman Empire as two examples have every opportunity to cushion and eventually reverse their decline, yet so many think that Poland shouldn't have this option. This is a history game, and Poland is plagued enough by weaknesses, even with latin tech to insure that a good portion of the time it would decline, however this is also a game that allows the change of history. And in this, general trends toward historicrity are great and keep things semi-historical, but the key is to avoid determinism.

As for Poland conquering the HRE, how many times have we seen France, Austria, and Sweden to a lesser extent dominating the HRE unhistorically? Why is it such a horrible thing if occasionally Poland did this as well? Which more often than not, it wouldn't, people have documented tests. In MP, a Poland player picking on Russia or the HRE would be commiting diplomatic suicide, in that hasten his own demise anyway, unless of course the people he is playing with simply don't care, and in that case we're not going to see very historic results anyway. Poland needs to be given the power at least, to hold its own through the middle of the 17th c, which it currently does not have. Poland was a status qou power, and is important in that regard, keeping the ahistorical expansion of her neighbors at a minimum. Elsewise we are going to continue to see the east in a completely ahistorical situation. While that may not bother some, it obviously is distasteful to many.

*edit* Btw, in regards to it "not being a history game" if Poland is not crushed by her enemies. Its not a history game if Poland cannot defeat with relative ease during its peak of power, those who would try and threaten her territorial integrity. Poland is not in the economic, strategic or diplomatic position to launch huge wars of aggression against her neighbors, but she should be able to defend herself.

Also, it was said before of Poland becoming a "mammoth" when intheriting Lithuania. When Poland inherits Lithuania her base tax value is around 190, her manpower is usually around 60, and she is plagued by huge stability costs from very many non-religious, non-culture provinces, not to mention added revolt risks. Poland is hardly the beast its being percieved as, even post inheritance. Especially when compared to her historical position as she was at this time more powerful than France, but in game terms comparing France and Poland in 1580 is like comparing David and Goliath.

 

[Mowers]

In the Tsunami game Poland has been well handled so far by Hans.

This game will give us a much better insight into the issue. We ought to be able to provide some interesting data over coming weeks.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Mowers
In the Tsunami game Poland has been well handled so far by Hans.

This game will give us a much better insight into the issue. We ought to be able to provide some interesting data over coming weeks.

Well, I took a quick glancing look and here is what we have simply from military technology:
(land/naval)

Poland 10/9
Russia 11/4
Austria 17/11
Sweden 15/13
Ottoman Empire 12/10
(and just for comparison purposes)
Algeria 9/9 (scheduled to hit 10 by end of 1567)

Sooo, Poland is behind, everyone, when she should be nearing the peak of her military power (early 1600's). This is in 1567, so Poland one of the most powerful countries (not to mention militarily innovative, if arguably not in other areas) historically at this time, will be by the end of the year, technologically on par with Algeria. Peter's idea about giving Poland a weapons manufactory in Krakow is definitely good, but I doubt it in itself will solve this glaring problem.

 

[Mowers]

Looks like we are getting those results already then. Lets keep up the pressure on getting data and then maybe there will be a clear answer.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Mowers
Looks like we are getting those results already then. Lets keep up the pressure on getting data and then maybe there will be a clear answer.

I can't remember if Russia in Tsunami has Donetsk yet or not... if she doesen't, im thinking we will see the entire Ukraine become Russian in short order, especially now that the path to Siberia has been forced open. But yes, it'll definitely be interesting to see how Poland plays the rest of the game out.

In the Clash of Powers thread, I had started as Poland, and boosting her up to 8 innovative, trying pretty hard to give her some centralization as well as building a couple refineries and a fine arts before I quit her for Russia, we are seeing the AI with its tech bonus doing quite nicely, however this was only after extensive effort by me + an AI cheat (and a random weapons manufactory) to keep her somewhat competitive, and even then as Russia in early 1600's i'm only a level behind her.

 

[N Katsyev]

As an update, in Tsunami at 1567, Poland hasn't reached any higher than level 2 infra/trade, not to mention her military techs of 10/9 (land/naval) that at the end of the year will be on par with those of Algeria. Couple that in with 28% inflation, this country is going to have a hard future, and she has yet to reach her historical prime.

Just tossing this up as another example of ahistorical Polish weakness in MP for anyone who still might doubt that changes are needed.

 

[unmerged(15381)]

I don't think Poland is too weak, but perhaps that Orthodox Techgroup is too weak. the Ottoman Empire also is ahistorically decrepit (sp?) as well, and even after Peter the Great, Russia's tech is far behind.

So my idea is not that the Poles got screwed out of their Historic power in the game, but all of the "Orthodox" tech group.

but thats just me