This all started by discussions on how the Ottoman Empire should start the game off with Latin tech group. Following the same idea, I really think Poland should start the game with Latin tech group as well. First off, when Poland starts out in a GC, in 1419, its virtually impossible for Poland to vassalize Lithuania, due to size/army factors, which robs it of much needed income that at least it starts with in AoE. Not to mention having the main eastern Baltic CoT in Kurland as opposed to Danzig. Which I think should be changed by event when Danzig comes under Polish control. However, since there will be no more new events, and there is no MoveCoT command, I doubt we'll be seeing this except through editing. Couple these couple factors with not so lovely events, and an economy killing dp set, we can see Poland is hobbled from the very beginning.
However, GC isn't important in this, as much as AoE is. When Poland starts out the AoE, she has to disband an army of somewhere near 100+k I believe down to 26k. Obviously Poland was balanced in the very beginning to own Lithuania to start with, however because she doesen't, and new maintenance rules (which I have nothing against btw) she can only maintain a small fraction of that. Now, Poland is given very respectable beginning techs, showing their military prowess at the time, however lacking Latin tech group she soon starts falling behind her neighbors, and while she can fare better technology-wise than Russia, she isn't on par with the best as she should be and was at the time, and while (arguably) defecient in infantry methods, superior with her cavalry arm. Poland's dp sliders at this time still are very economy killing, and without Lithuania yet, her economy is weak as is. Which means to keep a rather strong permanent army, you are eating up a good bit of your incomes, which hurts your chances to stay on tech par even more. Poland's two main concerns at this time, from 1492 until her inheritance in 1570 are Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Russia to keep out of a Lithuania that is incredibly hard to defend due to large distances, low support levels and long winters, and an Ottoman Empire that can role over an unaided Austria, or at least Hungary with a good bit of ease. This isn't including a +8 inflation increase when Prussia becomes your vassal after Protestant reformation, or the other events that are trying to further put you back in the stone age dp-wise, while they can be fought somewhat, it all comes at a price. Poland's one true boon at this time is a very respectable group of leaders.
However, once you make it to inheritance, you are rather large and with a healthy economy, things are much better, right? Well, not really, because inheriting Lithuania brings about nightmarish stability costs from all the Orthodox provinces alone, not to mention any Protties you have left in Poland and have acquired in the Baltic. Also to make stability even worse, with the new BB rule, is another 4 or 5 BB lumped onto your score, increasing your stab costs by another 20% or so. However, you are now making nearly 200 ducats a year in taxes, which is respectable and you go about spending everything you have on conversions with Monarchs with not so great ADM ratings. You do however get one great ADM monarch, and then its Ukraina converting time, you fail in this, you've lost some precious potential. Soon after inheriting Lithuania however, you have the Article event which is one of those lovely little ones thrown in there to make you take some heavy loans, go bankrupt, or save for years and years and years beforehand to pay for the -1200. So up the inflation a bit more, which again makes tech hugely more expensive, and you have a rapidly, and early declining Poland already. However, if you play right, you are still strong enough to have some nice influence in the 1580 - 1640 time period. And after Liberum Veto, if you fight the course of events, you can regain some much needed strength from 1660 or so until 1680 at which point you wonderous leaders start to become of less quality and quantity, which you were relying upon because of seriously insufficient tech at this point.
During all this time of horrible weakness either because you fought the nobles, or you didn't fight them, Poland was historically fending off the Russians, Swedes and Ottomans simultaneously. Poland needs to have the strength to be able to fight more than one of these opponents at once, at least until her declining time in the late 17th. Poland was among Europe's top land military powers, and this is poorly represented in the game by a small Poland with inadequate tech with her warmonger vassal Lithuania who is even worse tech-wise and can't manage her armies well at all. Now just throw Ottomans into this with the Latin techgroup proposed for them, and you will see Poland become a European non-entity, especially in any MP game. Poland and Austria are natural allies when put up against the Turk, but with an itchy trigger finger Russia waiting to pounce on Lithuania any chance he gets, Austria is robbed of an ally. And if Poland attempts to crush Russia quickly, everyone would freak out about player bashing. Also, god forbid Austria decides she wants to help herself to Polish lands, which would be totally unhistorical for the early game, but not out of line in most MP players' minds, then Poland has no chance of survival whatsoever, with her prematurely weakened tech group and low support limit. Hardly the place arguably the most powerful country of Eastern Europe for a good couple centuries should be in.
And for all of these reasons above, Poland, at the very least, should have Latin techgroup. Latin techgroup would enable Poland to be able to deal with the Russian menace while still keeping her at a low manpower/income to prevent Poland from totally dominating Russia. Poland could also fight the Swedes in the Baltic with some degree of effectivity as she historically did. And also not be totally victimized by an Ottoman empire running around with Latin techgroup. Even if the Ottomans don't get Latin techgroup, the Poles need to still be able to defend Poland and Lithuania from the heathen armies with a much smaller force, as the Lithuanians are about useless, and Poland's armies even with a ton of grain coming in through trade are stuck around a 40-50k support limit and only around 15 - 18 manpower until the intheritance. Now, as people have said, well this will hurt Russia's development too much in the long run, yadda, yadda, yadda. For one, Russia didn't start making any real gains on Poland-Lithuania till the late 17th century anyway, not to say they didn't try. And it wasn't until Peter the Great came around that the Russians had their huge turn around and were finally comptetitive with the Poles and Swedes. However, if people still argue that some form of balance is needed to keep Russia from being completely dominted then I propose that in the "Struggle for Royal Power" event of 1607 that Poland is only allowed to keep Latin techgroup by going with option C, "Wage a War of Extermination Against the Nobility" this action in itself would have done a ton to prevent the decline of Poland, as her real decline was from inner turmoil and paralyzation and had nothing to do with her armies or their technology. This option gives Poland a +5 revolt risk for 20 years, i'd say a fair price to pay for keeping her tecnological edge (and during this turmoil Russia might have a chance to gain some lands). And in choosing anything other she could start a tech decline to make her that much weaker in later years, and history can run its course. However, until a significant change is made, such as giving Poland Latin techgroup, she will never be able to live up to what she should be, especially in MP play.
However, GC isn't important in this, as much as AoE is. When Poland starts out the AoE, she has to disband an army of somewhere near 100+k I believe down to 26k. Obviously Poland was balanced in the very beginning to own Lithuania to start with, however because she doesen't, and new maintenance rules (which I have nothing against btw) she can only maintain a small fraction of that. Now, Poland is given very respectable beginning techs, showing their military prowess at the time, however lacking Latin tech group she soon starts falling behind her neighbors, and while she can fare better technology-wise than Russia, she isn't on par with the best as she should be and was at the time, and while (arguably) defecient in infantry methods, superior with her cavalry arm. Poland's dp sliders at this time still are very economy killing, and without Lithuania yet, her economy is weak as is. Which means to keep a rather strong permanent army, you are eating up a good bit of your incomes, which hurts your chances to stay on tech par even more. Poland's two main concerns at this time, from 1492 until her inheritance in 1570 are Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Russia to keep out of a Lithuania that is incredibly hard to defend due to large distances, low support levels and long winters, and an Ottoman Empire that can role over an unaided Austria, or at least Hungary with a good bit of ease. This isn't including a +8 inflation increase when Prussia becomes your vassal after Protestant reformation, or the other events that are trying to further put you back in the stone age dp-wise, while they can be fought somewhat, it all comes at a price. Poland's one true boon at this time is a very respectable group of leaders.
However, once you make it to inheritance, you are rather large and with a healthy economy, things are much better, right? Well, not really, because inheriting Lithuania brings about nightmarish stability costs from all the Orthodox provinces alone, not to mention any Protties you have left in Poland and have acquired in the Baltic. Also to make stability even worse, with the new BB rule, is another 4 or 5 BB lumped onto your score, increasing your stab costs by another 20% or so. However, you are now making nearly 200 ducats a year in taxes, which is respectable and you go about spending everything you have on conversions with Monarchs with not so great ADM ratings. You do however get one great ADM monarch, and then its Ukraina converting time, you fail in this, you've lost some precious potential. Soon after inheriting Lithuania however, you have the Article event which is one of those lovely little ones thrown in there to make you take some heavy loans, go bankrupt, or save for years and years and years beforehand to pay for the -1200. So up the inflation a bit more, which again makes tech hugely more expensive, and you have a rapidly, and early declining Poland already. However, if you play right, you are still strong enough to have some nice influence in the 1580 - 1640 time period. And after Liberum Veto, if you fight the course of events, you can regain some much needed strength from 1660 or so until 1680 at which point you wonderous leaders start to become of less quality and quantity, which you were relying upon because of seriously insufficient tech at this point.
During all this time of horrible weakness either because you fought the nobles, or you didn't fight them, Poland was historically fending off the Russians, Swedes and Ottomans simultaneously. Poland needs to have the strength to be able to fight more than one of these opponents at once, at least until her declining time in the late 17th. Poland was among Europe's top land military powers, and this is poorly represented in the game by a small Poland with inadequate tech with her warmonger vassal Lithuania who is even worse tech-wise and can't manage her armies well at all. Now just throw Ottomans into this with the Latin techgroup proposed for them, and you will see Poland become a European non-entity, especially in any MP game. Poland and Austria are natural allies when put up against the Turk, but with an itchy trigger finger Russia waiting to pounce on Lithuania any chance he gets, Austria is robbed of an ally. And if Poland attempts to crush Russia quickly, everyone would freak out about player bashing. Also, god forbid Austria decides she wants to help herself to Polish lands, which would be totally unhistorical for the early game, but not out of line in most MP players' minds, then Poland has no chance of survival whatsoever, with her prematurely weakened tech group and low support limit. Hardly the place arguably the most powerful country of Eastern Europe for a good couple centuries should be in.
And for all of these reasons above, Poland, at the very least, should have Latin techgroup. Latin techgroup would enable Poland to be able to deal with the Russian menace while still keeping her at a low manpower/income to prevent Poland from totally dominating Russia. Poland could also fight the Swedes in the Baltic with some degree of effectivity as she historically did. And also not be totally victimized by an Ottoman empire running around with Latin techgroup. Even if the Ottomans don't get Latin techgroup, the Poles need to still be able to defend Poland and Lithuania from the heathen armies with a much smaller force, as the Lithuanians are about useless, and Poland's armies even with a ton of grain coming in through trade are stuck around a 40-50k support limit and only around 15 - 18 manpower until the intheritance. Now, as people have said, well this will hurt Russia's development too much in the long run, yadda, yadda, yadda. For one, Russia didn't start making any real gains on Poland-Lithuania till the late 17th century anyway, not to say they didn't try. And it wasn't until Peter the Great came around that the Russians had their huge turn around and were finally comptetitive with the Poles and Swedes. However, if people still argue that some form of balance is needed to keep Russia from being completely dominted then I propose that in the "Struggle for Royal Power" event of 1607 that Poland is only allowed to keep Latin techgroup by going with option C, "Wage a War of Extermination Against the Nobility" this action in itself would have done a ton to prevent the decline of Poland, as her real decline was from inner turmoil and paralyzation and had nothing to do with her armies or their technology. This option gives Poland a +5 revolt risk for 20 years, i'd say a fair price to pay for keeping her tecnological edge (and during this turmoil Russia might have a chance to gain some lands). And in choosing anything other she could start a tech decline to make her that much weaker in later years, and history can run its course. However, until a significant change is made, such as giving Poland Latin techgroup, she will never be able to live up to what she should be, especially in MP play.
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