Point cost of Idea groups

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IIWW

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So, I calculated what is the point (from custom nations creator) cost of ideas in different idea groups. I didn't use any modifiers for idea being first/la,st one, just sum of cost. Obviously some ideas are not included in custom nations designer. If an idea was more than lvl 4 idea in CN designer, I extrapolate the value.

ADM:
Innovative 83 + 1 leader without an upkeep
Relligious 158 + Religious CB, +2 monthly Papal influence, +0,25 monthly fervor, + 2% missionary strenght against heretics
Economic 104
Expansion 106+ overseas expansion CB
Administrative 141; -10% ADM tech cost, +10% goods produced nationally
Humanist 411 +33%BROT
DIP:
Espionage 97 + allow sabotage reputation, sow discontent, infiltrate administration; -33% covert action dip impact, +50% rebel support efficiency
Diplomatic 113; +25% improve relations, -20% province WS cost, -10% DIP tech cost, lower stab impact from diplo actions
Trade 128 + 25% trade range, +20 caravan power, +10% national trade income modifier
Exploration 170; can recruit conquscadors and explorers; Colonial Expansion CB
Maritime 118 +20% ship repair, -10% ship cost, ships can repair in coastal zones
Influence 150; -33% envoy travel time, -50% unjustified demands
MIL:
Plutocratic 66; +10% good produced nationally, +25 caravan power.
Aristocratic 141; -10% Mil tech cost, +1 leader w/o upkeep.
Offensive 128; +5% army morale recovery speed
Defensive 138; -25% land attrition
Quality 23; +5% navy morale recovery speed, +5% army morale recovery speed, -25% naval attrition
Quantity 285; -10% regiment cost, -10% land attrition
Naval 71

On averenge each idea group has equivalent of 138,47 pc.
Averange for ADM idea group: 167,16
Averenge for DIP idea groups: 129,33
Averenge for MIL idea groups: 121,71

While exact evaluation of IG is impossible, since many of them have unique bonuses, some ideas have much higher or lower value.

"OP" idea groups:
Humanist: most of the value comes from their 5th idea, which gives -50% accepted culture treshold, which alone is worth 225 pc, more than whole pool for CN on normal settings, and more that any other IG (besides Quiantity) is worth (not counting special bonuses).
Quantity: it has two 100 pc ideas: +50% manpower modifier, the first idea in group, and the bonus for this group, +50% land FL modifier.

"UP" idea groups:
Innovative: it has about 60% of averenge value of IG, and their only special bonus isn't quite the strongest one.
Economic: below-avernge value, no specials.
Espionage: a lot of specials, but rather poor ones. Also below averange value.
Plutocratic: just the same, nothing special, really poor IG.
Quality: the most hopeless IG of them all. 16,6% of avernge value, extremly poor specials. Both morale recovery speed is basically useless, -25% naval attrition becomes useless late game.
Naval: like economic, no bonuses, almost half the averenge value.

Of course the specials are vvery important, and this should at any rate be considered a guide, it's just a evaluation, and it could be considered as both critics against certain groups (well, the lower "OP-UP" part should be) or against CN creator (I really doubt if culture acceptance treshold is that important.).
 
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I still like innovative for the tech cost, it's all situational though. Will be taking Quantity more often now though
 

TheGrouch91

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Completely forgetting about policies... which are one of the biggest reasons to take quality or economic for example.
 
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Kagemin

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And I still don't like Humanist ideas. :p
Interesting list though, some small adjustments to some of them would really be nice.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I still like innovative for the tech cost, it's all situational though. Will be taking Quantity more often now though

When you add up innovative's actual total tech cost savings across an entire game...

It loses miserably to administrative, and often even to groups that give you money faster.

Innovative is a strictly-for-MP policy group, it's trash tier in SP.
 
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birincikalite

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When you add up innovative's actual total tech cost savings across an entire game...

It loses miserably to administrative, and often even to groups that give you money faster.

Innovative is a strictly-for-MP policy group, it's trash tier in SP.
Nerf hit Innonative hard.
 

josh127

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The two where I feel specials can move idea groups to your "OP" state (at least to match Quantity) would be Exploration (a CB and the ability to explore) and Defensive (Where else can you get reduced attrition? You can't).

It's also worth noting that while Humanist might come out OP, I think part of that is that some of those ideas are simply overpriced in the custom nation tool. Most of the other groups seem to add up reasonably to what you'd expect though.
 

LastSalian

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And I still don't like Humanist ideas. :p
Interesting list though, some small adjustments to some of them would really be nice.
Humanism is pretty situational, and never a must-have idea group. It shines the most with Ottomans and Poland as first idea. I saw it too in extreme WC runs like Ryukyu WC. Used to be pretty OP when you could take Religious and then Humanism or viceversa.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Nerf hit Innonative hard.

Yes it did, but I don't understand it. It was already touted as a lowish tier group in SP even before the nerf, and mostly carried important value to MP because it was harder to keep tradition up without it there. Why they trashed it to sub-economic tier is beyond any known explanation. Economic is stronger in MP now IMO, as it has just-as-relevant military policies and gives a lot more money.

And yet people are still talking about saving 60 points of tech (linearly, across a campaign) as if it's a major draw for the group (which is kind of sad/comical). The strongest ideas are probably -25% advisor cost (this can be a lot of money, though note that you'll probably save just as much taking quantity) and -.05 WE, coupled with the policies. But it has to compete with religious and economic for policies, and both of those groups are almost strictly better otherwise.
 
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didnt economy idea group gave you events to increase base tax?
 

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Humanism is pretty situational, and never a must-have idea group. It shines the most with Ottomans and Poland as first idea.

Indian muslims (and especially the Mughals) are absolutely made for Humanism as well.
And I find -50% accepted cultures actually one of the worst ideas in the set, +RU, +tolerance and -2 unrest are far more significant.
 

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Indian muslims (and especially the Mughals) are absolutely made for Humanism as well.
And I find -50% accepted cultures actually one of the worst ideas in the set, +RU, +tolerance and -2 unrest are far more significant.

That idea alone incresed my income, manpower and force limit by roughly 25% in my last game. So you seem to underestimate the importance of accepted cultures. Not to mention that its basically -2 unrest on top of that.
 

LastSalian

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Indian muslims (and especially the Mughals) are absolutely made for Humanism as well.
And I find -50% accepted cultures actually one of the worst ideas in the set, +RU, +tolerance and -2 unrest are far more significant.
Yeah, Timurids / Mughals would rock with Humanism, but problem is you can only reform with Administrative, Innovative or Economic, and you can't take Admin+Admin, so you must decide between Religious or Humanism, and I tend to prefer Religious CB.

Don't underestimate the power of accepted cultures. The +33% tax and manpower, and +2 unrest, and +2% missionary strength is so awesome that you won't believe it.
 

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Yeah, Timurids / Mughals would rock with Humanism, but problem is you can only reform with Administrative, Innovative or Economic, and you can't take Admin+Admin, so you must decide between Religious or Humanism, and I tend to prefer Religious CB.

Don't underestimate the power of accepted cultures. The +33% tax and manpower, and +2 unrest, and +2% missionary strength is so awesome that you won't believe it.

In my recent Mughal game I took Humanism in my 4th slot (first 3 were Admin [to reform, plus coring machine], Quantity [because manpower in the Indo-Gangetic plain sucks for some reason] and Influence [for the AE reduction and unjustified demands, mostly]).

But even with -60% AC threshold my realm looked like this in the end:

TBZgOX1.png


During the playthrough I can only recall Bengal as being accepted, but I lost it when I expanded into the steppes after taking China. Persian hangs on with 4.20% with a 4% lower threshold. 5/2/3 tolerance rocks, on the other hand.
 
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LastSalian

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In my recent Mughal game I took Humanism in my 4th slot (first 3 were Admin [to reform, plus coring machine], Quantity [because manpower in the Indo-Gangetic plain sucks for some reason] and Influence [for the AE reduction and unjustified demands, mostly]).

But even with -60% AC threshold my realm looked like this in the end:

During the playthrough I can only recall Bengal as being accepted, but I lost it when I expanded into the steppes after taking China. Persian hangs on with 4.20% with a 4% lower threshold. 5/2/3 tolerance rocks, on the other hand.
Very illustrative. Increasing the accepted culture threshold if more of an early boost, rather than a long term investment. The influx of income and manpower of accepting cultures should help you to hire better advisors and conquer provinces faster until you eventually lose culture acceptance. That's why it's better to take it as 1st or 2nd idea. Otherwise, it turns pretty unlikely to get cultures accepted.

It works good when there are plenty of rich provinces of non accepted cultures like in a Venice campaign (greek provinces), and works very bad when there are many poor/mediocre provinces and cultures to accept, like in a Russian campaign.
 

OldmansHQ

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Yes it did, but I don't understand it. It was already touted as a lowish tier group in SP even before the nerf, and mostly carried important value to MP because it was harder to keep tradition up without it there. Why they trashed it to sub-economic tier is beyond any known explanation. Economic is stronger in MP now IMO, as it has just-as-relevant military policies and gives a lot more money.

And yet people are still talking about saving 60 points of tech (linearly, across a campaign) as if it's a major draw for the group (which is kind of sad/comical). The strongest ideas are probably -25% advisor cost (this can be a lot of money, though note that you'll probably save just as much taking quantity) and -.05 WE, coupled with the policies. But it has to compete with religious and economic for policies, and both of those groups are almost strictly better otherwise.
I really like the -5% Tech cost, but it's nowhere near as good as Admin Idea Group when it comes to saving paper mana. The -0.5 WE is one of my favourite Idea's in the game, it's amazing, in practice 40% better than the one from DOTF, another thing that Innovative Idea Group excels over the other is the random events. But wasting Idea Group Slot and mana is not that one amazing Idea and those events which may not happen.

Whenever it's time to select a new Idea Group, it hurts deep inside me. I want take innovate, but it just isn't good :(. As to Quality... Big discovery :p, I always knew it was teriburu.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Early on accepted culture is useful because in tandem with the -2 unrest idea you get 2 less in accepted cultures, so you can probably lower autonomy manually once nationalism is gone. It adds a lot more throughput early.

The real draw is indeed being completely fine even if you never convert a single province. That's a big advantage, because +3 tolerance coupled with -2 unrest and an initial 5 less unrest from nationalism makes it such that you have 10 less unrest in conquered provinces than you'd have without humanism, if taking wrong-religion land. That's underselling it though; if you would have had intolerance also the reduction is even greater. Coupled with the legitimacy + tolerance + 1 stability being ~ 8 unrest resistance having -2 unrest in the idea group set is strong.

The other nice thing about this route is that anybody in Asia can do it. This is from my "Orissa" run:

 

klingonadmiral

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It works good when there are plenty of rich provinces of non accepted cultures like in a Venice campaign (greek provinces), and works very bad when there are many poor/mediocre provinces and cultures to accept, like in a Russian campaign.

Then again, most people play EU4 to paint the map in the colour of their choice. And I actually don't like taking Humanism early that much, I prefer ideas that help me fight off my stronger neighbours.

I always knew it was teriburu.

That's easy though. Boat stuff = bad stuff :D