Plvs Vltra Cultures

[Therion]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Open cultures.txt and change:

swabian = {
city = BAN MIN
buildings = BAN MIN
color = Brown
}

Marchfeld starts Bavarian on mine. I guess they changed via event, as low german uses german tag.

Lettish represents the Latvians, who are Baltic, not Finnic (Estonians and Livonians).

 

[Herr Doctor]

Ok. Livonia was Lettish, as well? (AFAIK, Livonian is Finnic)

In the 15th century it was defiantly mostly Baltic ("Lettish" in our case) with Germans towns and castles, the Ugric Livs and the Ests as the minority. From the map Toio cites in AGCEEP thread - the Baltic land sin the 13th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg

Latgalians are one of the "Latvian" Baltic tribes. During the 13th-15th the territory of the Livs become even much smaller. In AGCEEP it was made "Ugric" because of the Swedish culture dilemma (in order not to give it large Baltic culture).

For starters, High German (Saxon) needs to be spread with the reformation so maybe we can include province culture change along with conversion. Or use the conversion as a trigger to have the province change its culture some time after Lutheran conversion in order to make it more realistic.

That would be great indeed. Not sure how to change state culture of the influenced realms this way so...

 

[Therion]

If you decided to base your culture setup on the "national cultures" principle you can also consider making all provinces of modern Belarus (Navahradak, Minsk, Polotsk, Mogiliov) as "Lithuanian". The elites of the Grand Duchy in the 15th century shared quite common patterns of high culture, were speaking and writing the same language (Old Ruthenian) etc. The situation similar to the "Hungarian" culture. Btw, this was the case in original eu2.

Which one is Mogiliov province?

Would you kindly check whether the default capital cities of the provinces of Lithuania are correct? They need to be in the primary state language as I used that principle for other nations.

 

[Therion]

Oh... *sigh*

Open cultures.txt and change accordingly:

venetian = {
city = MUS MIN
buildings = MUS MIN
color = LightGreen
}

Thanks for that.

 

[Toio]

WAGCEEP Cultures

istrian people at the time of the 14th century spoke Romansch ( friulian ) , from about this time the veneti migrated a lot a people from the veneto and the language became venetian but transformed slowly into istriot.
The slavs first arrived via the vlachs and morlachs around the 17th century.

slowly over time and loss of Venice as a republic, by the 1910 census, 42% spoke croatian and 38% spoke italian

to conclude, if Friulian is not introduced, then venetian it has to be

 

[Bordic]

WAGCEEP Cultures

if you introduce Alemannic for alsace, then the swiss needs to be Alemannic too , except for the grisons who where Romansch

That could be good as per the detractors about swiss culture, but Romansch culture couldn't be changed into italian?

Another idea is that Switzerland provinces become swiss with event HEL_20307.

 

[Therion]

So here's something that's been bugging me.

Franconian language area.

Low Franconian (Dutch) in yellow, West Central German (Central and Rhine Franconian) in green and High Franconian in blue.

In our mod, the blue part more or less corresponds with Franconian, the green part with Rhenish and yellow with Dutch. Based on this map:
- Luxembourg, Kassel, Darmstadt and Nassau should be Rhenish
- Pfalz Franconian
- Kleve and maybe Gelre (the Southern part) Dutch
- Westfalia Low German
- Elsass Alemannic

Alternatively, we could merge Rhenish and Franconian into one 'Franconian' culture.

We could also split Dutch into Flemish (Calais, Flanders and Brabant) and Dutch or Hollandic (the rest). Otherwise, we could unite Dutch with Franconian until Dutch independence. I think most German people call themselves some variant of Dutch, so Dutch is just an endonym that stuck in the English language because of England's proximity with the Netherlands. According to etymonline, Dutch was used for all Germans starting from the late 14th century, then used exclusively for the Hollanders (acquiring its current meaning) from c. 1600 (i.e. shortly after Dutch independence).

 

[Herr Doctor]

Regarding German culture. I am mostly happy with the present setup. With some reservations I mentioned before about Lorrain and Alemannic. Because IMO we should consider first game mechanics and "political cultures" and only then linguistic ones.

EDIT
One of the mentioned reasons why I suggested Walloon for Luxembourg (except the gameplay and historical considerations):

Because the bigger part of the historical duchy was peaking Walloon (the one in pink later annexed to Belgium).

 

[Therion]

Regarding German culture. I am mostly happy with the present setup. With some reservations I mentioned before about Lorrain and Alemannic. Because IMO we should consider first game mechanics and "political cultures" and only then linguistic ones.

EDIT
One of the mentioned reasons why I suggested Walloon for Luxembourg (except the gameplay and historical considerations):

Because the bigger part of the historical duchy was peaking Walloon (the one in pink later annexed to Belgium).

How about:

-change Franche-Comte to French
-Lorrain(ian) for Lorraine
-BUR starts with French, gains Walloon and Dutch when it inherits HAU... now what happens if BUR manages to form Lotharingia? The current event gives cores on Low German (Oldenburg), Rhenish (Kleves, Koln) and Alemannic (Elsass) lands..
-Merge Franconian and Rhenish as the current split is quite arbitrary (depends on BUR issue)
-Replace Swabian with Alemannic and include Elsass (depends on BUR issue) and Switzerland till event HEL_20307, as per Bordic suggestion

 

[Herr Doctor]

How about:

-change Franche-Comte to French
-Lorrain(ian) for Lorraine
-BUR starts with French, gains Walloon and Dutch when it inherits HAU... now what happens if BUR manages to form Lotharingia? The current event gives cores on Low German (Oldenburg), Rhenish (Kleves, Koln) and Alemannic (Elsass) lands..
-Merge Franconian and Rhenish as the current split is quite arbitrary (depends on BUR issue)
-Replace Swabian with Alemannic and include Elsass (depends on BUR issue) and Switzerland till event HEL_20307, as per Bordic suggestion

This should work I think.

 

[Toio]

How about:

-change Franche-Comte to French
-Lorrain(ian) for Lorraine
-BUR starts with French, gains Walloon and Dutch when it inherits HAU... now what happens if BUR manages to form Lotharingia? The current event gives cores on Low German (Oldenburg), Rhenish (Kleves, Koln) and Alemannic (Elsass) lands..
-Merge Franconian and Rhenish as the current split is quite arbitrary (depends on BUR issue)
-Replace Swabian with Alemannic and include Elsass (depends on BUR issue) and Switzerland till event HEL_20307, as per Bordic suggestion

agree

 

[Bordic]

How about:

-change Franche-Comte to French
-Lorrain(ian) for Lorraine
-BUR starts with French, gains Walloon and Dutch when it inherits HAU... now what happens if BUR manages to form Lotharingia? The current event gives cores on Low German (Oldenburg), Rhenish (Kleves, Koln) and Alemannic (Elsass) lands..
-Merge Franconian and Rhenish as the current split is quite arbitrary (depends on BUR issue)
-Replace Swabian with Alemannic and include Elsass (depends on BUR issue) and Switzerland till event HEL_20307, as per Bordic suggestion

Ok for FC, but in this case and for consistency, should Provence and Savoy provinces still have proper cultures?

 

[Herr Doctor]

What about the Burgundy/Lotharingia issue?

Personally I would only give Burdgundy Lorrain and may be even Franconian (but not necessary) additional culture but have it to loose French at the same time (similar to AGCEEP). It is not like fantasy Lotharingia should have all the provinces cultures it pretends to control. This is an alternative history and not very luckily to happen in game, so not a serious argument to consider for historical cultures setup.

 

[Therion]

Ok for FC, but in this case and for consistency, should Provence and Savoy provinces still have proper cultures?

We could also create a 'Burgundian' culture and give it to Nevers, Bourgogne and Franche-Comte. Nevers and Bourgogne become French when/if they are annexed by France and FC stays that way.

I've had enough of cultures for now... It's clearly impossible to have a perfect system in some places.

BTW, should Provence own Maine and Anjou from the start?

 

[Toio]

Since baltic culture has been seperated, i think we need to rid it of the 2 remaining provinces

Curonia and Largalia

From 1100 chronciles it was designated as Finnic people roamed there

I suggest Finnic culture and then introduction of Latvian culture once Courland emerge

On another isue - Osel should be either Swedish or Gothic culture as it was purely people from these area inhabited it. Actually the islands real name mean land of the Saami people.

 

[Bordic]

We could also create a 'Burgundian' culture and give it to Nevers, Bourgogne and Franche-Comte. Nevers and Bourgogne become French when/if they are annexed by France and FC stays that way.

I have found this map of nowaday's French dialects. It seems to give nothing more than what we have already discussed...

 

[Toio]

well it proves that the current setup of cultures works as per my screenshot

In france there are 6 main branches
L'oil = standard french and resided from the north of france with a germanic content ( franks)
L'occ = southern half of france , more latin and gallic based includes provenzal
savoryard = a mix of l'occ and piemontese
breton = gaelic
gascon = a mix of l'occ and basque
norman = a mix of dutch, picard and walloon

i believe the cultures for france is fine except for burgundian and lorraine areas, I dislike lothgarian and prefer Lorrain for both areas

I also think that the current walloon should extend to picaine, caux and normandy , and be given to ENG at start of game

 

[Bordic]

i believe the cultures for france is fine except for burgundian and lorraine areas, I dislike lothgarian and prefer Lorrain for both areas

I also think that the current walloon should extend to picaine, caux and normandy , and be given to ENG at start of game

I see that many refuse the term Lotharingian and prefer Lorrain, I don't know the English connotation of these words, but for me Lotharingian or Lorrain are synonyms, respectively for the German Lothringen and the French Lorrain. Maybe I'm wrong if I use them indifferently...

I would be for using Lorrain for Lorraine + Bar + FC only.

About picaine you mean Picardie? I was thinking about walloon but I wasn't sure... Le chtimi... But why should Normandie and Caux be walloon?

 

[Toio]

About picaine you mean Picardie? I was thinking about walloon but I wasn't sure... Le chtimi... But why should Normandie and Caux be walloon?

because when the normans ( vikings) invaded normandy and caux and cherbourg they massacred a lot of the french, they then in time became french by introducing walloon citizens ( french-dutch people) into the area.

IIRC these walloon went back to sweden later ..or was it before...i cannot remember

L'oil ( standard french ) did not have access to the coast in the norman period

so to concluded, the culture was different to french at the time of our game, the french king introduced standard french for the whole country in the 16th century

 

[Toio]

I have found this map of nowaday's French dialects. It seems to give nothing more than what we have already discussed...

using your link, I would have from normandy to walloon ( not flanders ) as walloon
- use breton
- lorrain ( include franche-comte)
- french - yellow central area including poitou
- savoryard - blue area
- occitan for the south