Plutocracy vs Aristocracy

[Hallwood-Ingham]

Hullo. Playing the demo, I noticed that you cannot have plutocratic national ideas unless you are a republic, and vise versa with aristocracy unless you are a monarchy. Why is this? I can sort of see the logic behind it, but it seems inherently flawed. Serfdom is only something really necessitated if you are a Feudal Monarchy, whereas a Constitutional Monarchy, Revolutionary Empire and several others could well have Plutocracies. Even more flawed, Noble Republics cannot have Aristocracy.

It seems an unnecessary limit on player choice to restrict a national idea to what government type they have, especially when the definitions for 'monarchy' and 'republic' cover so many varieties. The bonuses provided by Plutocracy are so beneficial to some nations that it almost forces them to become republics, regardless of player choice or history. Instead of limiting the national idea by government type, would it not be better to allow any country to have either Plutocracy OR Aristocracy, locking off the other idea branch? This would mean players still have the choice, without having conflicts between one idea bracnh having Serfdom and the other Abolishing Serfdom at the same time.

The game is looking fantastic btw, I can't wait to play with the trade system in a multiplayer game.

 

[BoleslavLev]

I really can´t answer that, but when I was playing demo and look at England, it has plutocratic idea. How is that possible? Is it the relict from the Cromwell times? And if so, does it means once you have the group, you´ll keep it? And if so, can you get plutocracy, turn into kingdom and get aristocracy as well? Because that would be awesome.

 

[Hallwood-Ingham]

I really can´t answer that, but when I was playing demo and look at England, it has plutocratic idea. How is that possible? Is it the relict from the Cromwell times? And if so, does it means once you have the group, you´ll keep it? And if so, can you get plutocracy, turn into kingdom and get aristocracy as well? Because that would be awesome.

Really, England had plutocracy? In the 1492 start? If so, it's well before the Civil War. But that raises some interesting questions, as you say. Can anyone clarify whether choosing plutocracy and converting/returning to a monarchy retains the idea? Or does the idea get 'converted' into aristocracy? Is it possible to start with no ideas in the 1444 scenario and recreate this?

 

[BoleslavLev]

Jeez, I am so stupid. I am sorry for that. Since I am studying history at the university I know nothing. I was waaaaayyyyy more educated back at grammar school. I´ll go to hell for this. But yes, I understand that. Let me check it. (Btw how can I post picture here? - that would help...)

 

[Red_Ivan]

It does seem a rather unnecessary, and i don't think it adds to the realism of the game either

 

[Hallwood-Ingham]

Jeez, I am so stupid. I am sorry for that. Since I am studying history at the university I know nothing. I was waaaaayyyyy more educated back at grammar school. I´ll go to hell for this. But yes, I understand that. Let me check it. (Btw how can I post picture here? - that would help...)

There is an 'insert image' option when you are posting that sends you to browse your pc. I presume that works. I wouldn't want you posting any picture that might get you into trouble with the powers that be, though

 

[Jia Xu]

I kind of like this because it's a noticeable difference between monarchies and republics outside of succession. With that said, I like playing monarchy and plutocracy seems like the better set for the most part. I'm fine either way.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Calm down, I didn´t hack anything (although you can play as England and Spain in tutorial - for like 20 minutes before you do everything. Maybe there are more countries - I didn´t go through the whole tutorial yet). But I am unable to insert that picture I just took. It wants ULR (what is that actually? I always thought it has something to do with the Internet). No going through my files in the PC.

 

[Druplesnubb]

We know for a fact that noble republics have Aristocratic Ideas instead of Plutocratic Ideas. I like this system since it means that there's a bigger difference between the difference government types. My only problems is that constitutional monarchies (apparently) don't have Plutocratic Ideas. That, and whatever the heck is up with England. It would also be nice with a third group called Theocratic Ideas for all the theocracies out there.

 

[BoleslavLev]

http://www.2imgs.com/d223c1eb38 Sorry for link, but I just can´t figure it out. Anyway. This picture clearly says England has a plutocratic idea AND it´s kingdom. If you start the game and look at England in 1492, it has no ideas, but already has a slot for plutocratic ideas (with 0 in brackets). Can anybody from the Dev team explain this? Is it some mistake, or is there some higher reason behind it?

 

[Hallwood-Ingham]

Aha, so that's where you see what ideas a country has. I had been looking for that

 

[Hallwood-Ingham]

We know for a fact that noble republics have Aristocratic Ideas instead of Plutocratic Ideas. I like this system since it means that there's a bigger difference between the difference government types. My only problems is that constitutional monarchies (apparently) don't have Plutocratic Ideas. That, and whatever the heck is up with England. It would also be nice with a third group called Theocratic Ideas for all the theocracies out there.

So Paradox have made exceptions? The different in government type is already going to be hugely pronounced because of the increased influence on the ruler on your nations' progress. How you get that ruler and how long he/she stays around will matter much more than it did in EU3. For constitutional monarchies you could say either Aristocracy or Plutocracy would be suitable, it seems unfair to limit it.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Also, I was trying to get plutocracy with Venice and than change myself into noble republic, but it turns out, I can´t do it. Does it mean, that merchant republic will stick with their government forever (unless they play so horribly somebody would force them to change)?

EDIT: Btw that regency council in England is terrific, I wouldn´t want any king ever after this.

 

[firelordzuko]

According to 00_basic_ideas.txt, aristocracy ideas require you to have either a monarchy, a noble republic, a papacy, or a theocracy. Plutocracy requires you have neither of those, meaning they are mutually exclusive.
From a gameplay point of view, this seems alright. Historically speaking, it is plain wrong. Venice, for example, was a more aristocratic state in the EU4 period than, say, France or the German states, where nobiltiy could be bought or acquired by service. In Venice and probably other merchant republics, the ancient aristocracy was not opened except for tiny, expensive sales of titles from the late 1600s during times of economic crisis.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Still I have 2 questions:
1) how England can have plutocracy when it is a kingdom (old question).
2) If you already have either plutocracy or aristocracy, would you be able to go around the system by changing your government, or would those two idea groups be exclusive? (that seems like the easiest and most simple solution to me, but who am I to judge this).

 

[dharper]

Hey! You're right! I didn't like the aristocracy ideas at all, and the plutocracy ones are right up my alley...but I like to play monarchies. Hmm.

 

[BoleslavLev]

I like to play republics, except that from 99% of republican tradition down you have higher stability cost.

 

[dharper]

I like to play republics, except that from 99% of republican tradition down you have higher stability cost.

Oh, is that what it does? I couldn't find an explanation in the demo. Nor could I find my current republican tradition...which screen is it displayed on?

 

[BoleslavLev]

You have lower revolt risk for quite long time (until 50%+ maybe), but every time you under 100% you have more expensive stability. It is 2% higher cost for every 1% below 100% tradition (so when I re-elected my doge, I was at 90% tradition which meant +20% stability cost). I think it is possible to be somewhere around 75% tradition, but going lower with low stability is dangerous.

EDIT: Republican tradition is on the up side of the screen, on the right side of the bar I think. It looks like little green hat with feather (same as in the tech screen with adm technology).

 

[WeissRaben]

You have lower revolt risk for quite long time (until 50%+ maybe), but every time you under 100% you have more expensive stability. It is 2% higher cost for every 1% below 100% tradition (so when I re-elected my doge, I was at 90% tradition which meant +20% stability cost). I think it is possible to be somewhere around 75% tradition, but going lower with low stability is dangerous.

EDIT: Republican tradition is on the up side of the screen, on the right side of the bar I think. It looks like little green hat with feather (same as in the tech screen with adm technology).

You ALWAYS have lower revolt risk, even at 5%. It is ridiculously unnoticeable then, but it's there.