Pluto thread

[TheDungen]

Pluto and Eris are far larger than the other known Plutoids; it is disingenuous to suggest there may be thousands of Pluto-like objects out in the Kuiper belt, and both are more massive than the four objects chosen from the asteroid belt to feature in the game.

I am disgusted by the anti-Kuiper Belt object racism on display in this thread and I think you should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

Oh stop watering down the impact of the word racism with meaningless stuff. Those objects are more important since they are so insanely closer to earth than pluto. Again pluto is twice as far away as neptune the outernmost planet since pluto lost planetary status, and yeah theyre may easily be larger objects than pluto in the oort cloud, they're just so far away that we haven't found them yet.

And don't give me the line about how the solar system is better with 9 planets than with 8, because it's way more awesome with 8 planets and a thousand dwarfplanets, not to mention moons, asteriods meteorites, comets and so on. You solar system is small and static mine is large and complex.

Myself I'm disgusted by the amount of reactionary nostalgia in this thread, this stuff is what gives scientists trouble sleeping at night. How are we ever to change the world when people resist every form of change just because they can? Even on issues such as this which are important to science and should be utterly unimportant to everyone else. What does it matter to you if pluto is a planet or a dwarf planet?

Gee no wonder we don't have a proper official definition of what a disease is yet.

"The most dangerous phrase of the language is 'We've always done it that way'".

 

[Tim_Ward]

Oh stop watering down the impact of the word racism with meaningless stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Those objects are more important since they are so insanely closer to earth than pluto

Everything in the inner solar system is insanely closer to earth than everything in the outer solar system; the game map is not (and cannot be) to scale. Meanwhile, the orbit of Pluto goes inside that of Neptune at perihelion (I believe this is set to happen within shouting distance of Stellaris's start date). Eris also gets very close to Neptunes orbit at perihelion before being flung off into far depths of the Kuipter belt.

The vast distances just make them more interesting to me, but I admit that's just a matter of taste.

and yeah theyre may easily be larger objects than pluto in the oort cloud, they're just so far away that we haven't found them yet.

Yeah, some people think there's something super-earth sized hanging out in the deep kuiper belt, disrupting everyone's orbits.

So I'm sure there are undiscovered objects comparable to pluto out there, but thousands of them? No.

 

[brobman22]

Yeah, some people think there's something super-earth sized hanging out in the deep kuiper belt, disrupting everyone's orbits.

So I'm sure there are undiscovered objects comparable to pluto out there, but thousands of them? No.

they used to think that but now we know its Neptune messing with Pluto's orbit and that the milky way has loads of ice moons and rocks

 

[Tim_Ward]

This is a relatively recent idea. 2015 recent. http://www.universetoday.com/118252...t-two-more-large-planets-in-the-solar-system/

“This property appears to be shared by almost all known asteroids with semimajor axis greater than 150 au and perihelion greater than 30 au (the extreme trans-Neptunian objects or ETNOs), and this fact has been interpreted as evidence for the existence of a super-Earth at 250 au. In this scenario, a population of stable asteroids may be shepherded by a distant, undiscovered planet larger than the Earth that keeps the value of their argument of perihelion librating around 0° as a result of the Kozai mechanism.”

It could have been disproven since then and I just haven't heard of it, but are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Plenty of ideas planets beyond Neptune have been drempt up and then disproven over the years.

 

[yerm]

They need to add Pluto because I was taught as a child that it is a planet and therefore I want it in no matter what science says!

Once we've added in Pluto, can we discuss which FTL system Santa will be using to deliver presents to children in a multitude of solar systems?

 

[TheDungen]

Everything in the inner solar system is insanely closer to earth than everything in the outer solar system; the game map is not (and cannot be) to scale. Meanwhile, the orbit of Pluto goes inside that of Neptune at perihelion (I believe this is set to happen within shouting distance of Stellaris's start date). Eris also gets very close to Neptunes orbit at perihelion before being flung off into far depths of the Kuipter belt.

It's exponential, yes distances in the inner solar system are much smaller than in the outer, but as you get further out the distances increase exponentially, the big mases in th asteroid belt are a mere skip and a jump from here, not to mention from mars or each other compared to the vast distance youäd have to travel to reach pluto which isn't that much bigger than they are.

The vast distances just make them more interesting to me, but I admit that's just a matter of taste.

Yeah but economics isn't about taste, it's simply much more cost efficiant using the abundant resources in the inner and even outser solar system than there is in hunting the 80% of so of the mass bound to our star that is the random stuff scattered beyond the orbit of neptune, the oort cloud.
As several people have said the Oort cloud and it's cunterparts in other solar systems should be represented by a asteroid belt at the edge of each system.

Yeah, some people think there's something super-earth sized hanging out in the deep kuiper belt, disrupting everyone's orbits.

I didn't say a superterrestrial roobject, I said a dwarfplanet larger than pluto. And there easily could, there are rogue worlds not bound to the gravity of any sun floating around in interstellar space, and they come in all sizes, from small dwarfplanets, to objects like jupiter that almost had the mass to becoem suns themselves, but since they're so far from a sun they're hard to spot.
I don't think you get quite how large the oort cloud really is. The kupier belt is just a small fraction of it, the oort cloud is any object bound in orbit around our sun.

So I'm sure there are undiscovered objects comparable to pluto out there, but thousands of them? No.

Again you donöt get how unfathomably vast the oort cloud really is, how much of the total mass of the solar system is really bound up in it. The oort loud contains billions of objects some not larger than my fist some like pluto significantly larger.

And again if Mike Brown (the man who pushed for the creation of the dwarfplanet status and pluto being included in that group) thinks that there is no justification for Pluto not being a planet perhaps you should read his reasoning before you dimiss it.

 

[TheDungen]

This is a relatively recent idea. 2015 recent. http://www.universetoday.com/118252...t-two-more-large-planets-in-the-solar-system/



It could have been disproven since then and I just haven't heard of it, but are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Plenty of ideas planets beyond Neptune have been drempt up and then disproven over the years.

Not really I remember my teacher mentioning it in elementary school in the early 90s, she refered to it as planet x.

Considering we've discovered three objects almost as large as pluto in the last decade alone and that these are all in the extreemly small part of the oort cloud known as the kupier belt should tell you to not be so certain of what we'll find out there.

 

[SaphireSeas]

Once we've added in Pluto, can we discuss which FTL system Santa will be using to deliver presents to children in a multitude of solar systems?

Time Stop. It is the only way.

I'll support Pluto so we can have a Pluto-Charon double planetary system in the Sol system.

 

[TheDungen]

I'll support Pluto in the game if and only if all dwarfplanets discovered to date are also included. And they are clearly designated dwarf planets, not planets.

 

[Daddl]

Pluto will be modded in. Then I'll play an alien race, discover Earth and revenge the horrible treatment mankind gave to Pluto. I'll build a nice little Death Star with a lovely giant heart on it, name it PlutoIsLove and destroy the moon. Then I'll move Pluto to the former moons orbit so it can watch how I enslave mankind. And Pluto will smile once again.

 

[Tim_Ward]

It's exponential, yes distances in the inner solar system are much smaller than in the outer, but as you get further out the distances increase exponentially, the big mases in th asteroid belt are a mere skip and a jump from here, not to mention from mars or each other compared to the vast distance youäd have to travel to reach pluto which isn't that much bigger than they are.

Just bare in mind we're talking about a universe where you can go to other stars.

Yeah but economics isn't about taste, it's simply much more cost efficiant using the abundant resources in the inner and even outser solar system than there is in hunting the 80% of so of the mass bound to our star that is the random stuff scattered beyond the orbit of neptune, the oort cloud.

Again, consider the economics of when you have FTL. Assume it works in Stellaris like a lot of other sci-fi universes where you have to fly to the outer edge of the solar system before you use your jump drives and you end up there when you jump in; suddenly it's a pretty important place both as a resupply depot and defensively.

If it *doesn't* work like that then there's nothing stopping you from just firing up your FTL drive and just nipping out to the Kuiper belt in like 30 minutes or whatever.

Also, if you're doing something that you don't want anyone to know about, the Kuiper belt is the ideal place. Vast. Cold. Dark. Secret base for ethically dubious research in the far reaches of the Kuiper belt? Headquarters of a clandestine intelligence group. Vast ammo deploy as a hedge against invasion? Tell me that's not cool.

I didn't say a superterrestrial roobject, I said a dwarfplanet larger than pluto. And there easily could, there are rogue worlds not bound to the gravity of any sun floating around in interstellar space, and they come in all sizes, from small dwarfplanets, to objects like jupiter that almost had the mass to becoem suns themselves, but since they're so far from a sun they're hard to spot.
I don't think you get quite how large the oort cloud really is. The kupier belt is just a small fraction of it, the oort cloud is any object bound in orbit around our sun.

I don't think talking about the Kuiper belt and oort cloud as if they were the same thing is helpful; the distances to the Kuiper belt are measured in 10s of AU, in the oort cloud we talk about 100,000s of AU. The thing stretches like half way to Alpha Centauri.

Again you donöt get how unfathomably vast the oort cloud really is, how much of the total mass of the solar system is really bound up in it. The oort loud contains billions of objects some not larger than my fist some like pluto significantly larger.

It's really not that much, as far as we know. It's vast, as you said, but really spread out. Like, really spread out.

This implies the existence of a large reservoir of comets. This was first noted by the Dutch astronomer Jan Oort in 1950 so the spherical comet reservoir was named after him. If Halley's Comet's mass is typical for comets, then the Oort Cloud could have a total mass between 4 and 80 Earth masses.

Even the upper end is less than in either Jupiter or Saturn, nothing like the 80% of the entire solar system you said earlier.

And again if Mike Brown (the man who pushed for the creation of the dwarfplanet status and pluto being included in that group) thinks that there is no justification for Pluto not being a planet perhaps you should read his reasoning before you dimiss it.

You appear to be conflating "being a planet" with "being on the Stellaris version of the Sol System". Why? There are plenty of objects on there that aren't planets; moons and dwarf planets in the asteroid belt. Some of the ones they do have aren't even gravitationally rounded.

If they want to stop at Neptune that's fine by me. What they do and do not include is ultimately arbitrary so stopping at Neptune makes as much sense as anything.

I'm just saying, there are ways to make Kuiper Belt objects interesting gameplay wise and most of the objections to including them don't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Darkath]

Ceres and 14 other asteroids used to be considered planets. I think Ceres is actually more planet-like than Pluto is, considering their orbital mechanics. Was it mean to take their planet status away? should they all be in the game too?

1 Ceres and other asteroids up to 4 Vesta are in game at least.

I mean Vesta is in game and not Pluto ?

There are Saturn moons and dwarf planets more interesting than Vesta which is a basalt rock with no features and probably low in resources :

 

[aitaituo]

Don't knock Hestia-sama. She has interesting features!

 

[EU3NOOB]

Don't knock Hestia-sama. She has interesting features!

Indeed she does...

 

[brobman22]

Don't knock Hestia-sama. She has interesting features!

 

[TheDungen]

Just bare in mind we're talking about a universe where you can go to other stars.



Again, consider the economics of when you have FTL. Assume it works in Stellaris like a lot of other sci-fi universes where you have to fly to the outer edge of the solar system before you use your jump drives and you end up there when you jump in; suddenly it's a pretty important place both as a resupply depot and defensively.

If it *doesn't* work like that then there's nothing stopping you from just firing up your FTL drive and just nipping out to the Kuiper belt in like 30 minutes or whatever.

Also, if you're doing something that you don't want anyone to know about, the Kuiper belt is the ideal place. Vast. Cold. Dark. Secret base for ethically dubious research in the far reaches of the Kuiper belt? Headquarters of a clandestine intelligence group. Vast ammo deploy as a hedge against invasion? Tell me that's not cool.



I don't think talking about the Kuiper belt and oort cloud as if they were the same thing is helpful; the distances to the Kuiper belt are measured in 10s of AU, in the oort cloud we talk about 100,000s of AU. The thing stretches like half way to Alpha Centauri.

It's really not that much, as far as we know. It's vast, as you said, but really spread out. Like, really spread out.



Even the upper end is less than in either Jupiter or Saturn, nothing like the 80% of the entire solar system you said earlier.



You appear to be conflating "being a planet" with "being on the Stellaris version of the Sol System". Why? There are plenty of objects on there that aren't planets; moons and dwarf planets in the asteroid belt. Some of the ones they do have aren't even gravitationally rounded.

If they want to stop at Neptune that's fine by me. What they do and do not include is ultimately arbitrary so stopping at Neptune makes as much sense as anything.

I'm just saying, there are ways to make Kuiper Belt objects interesting gameplay wise and most of the objections to including them don't make a whole lot of sense.

Because every time someone caves and let's Pluto it reinforces Pluto as a planet in the public mind. And I did not confuse the cupier belt with the orrt cloud I said from the begining that one was a subset of the other you're the one who every time I used oort cloud repsonded with mentioning the much smaller cupier belt. And now you're acting Like I was making the mistake that you were really the one making.
As for how much mass is in the oort cloud my source is cosmos can't remember which episode but the most recent season. I think documentary trumps wikipedia.

 

[palomer]

1 Ceres and other asteroids up to 4 Vesta are in game at least.

I mean Vesta is in game and not Pluto ?

There are Saturn moons and dwarf planets more interesting than Vesta which is a basalt rock with no features and probably low in resources :

I do not know the reasoning behind including the 4 asteroids. I can see an arguement to include them as an abstraction for the asteroid belt as a whole. I suspect there is some gameplay behind it, but I don't know. I agree that there are moons that are more interesting than them. I feel like moons should be considered part of their host planets (perhaps as modifiers or special rules). If moons are separate it will add a lot of unnecessary complexity. Is it reasonable to think you might control Earth while an Alien race controlls Luna? Yeah, it is possible, but it doesn't sound like a long term relationship. Probably just a first stage in an invasion of Earth. In which case it could be modeled as a modifier to an Earth invasion. Do you really want to manage having to send colony ships to every significant moon in a system? Sounds like a chore to me. 3-10 objects per system (as stated by Paradox) sounds reasonble. If they were to cut the Solar System down to 10 or less, I would cut the asteroids first.

 

[Knotz]

Fight the good fight Plutonians!

Spoiler

 

[cookiesandmilk3]

Because every time someone caves and let's Pluto it reinforces Pluto as a planet in the public mind. And I did not confuse the cupier belt with the orrt cloud I said from the begining that one was a subset of the other you're the one who every time I used oort cloud repsonded with mentioning the much smaller cupier belt. And now you're acting Like I was making the mistake that you were really the one making.
As for how much mass is in the oort cloud my source is cosmos can't remember which episode but the most recent season. I think documentary trumps wikipedia.

That's not how sources work. And also, why is it a bad thing that Pluto is reinforced as a planet in the public mind? Why can't Pluto be given special status?

 

[palomer]

Fight the good fight Plutonians!

Spoiler

Cultists, the lot of you!

That's not how sources work. And also, why is it a bad thing that Pluto is reinforced as a planet in the public mind? Why can't Pluto be given special status?

Because we don't want to have to say "except Pluto" every time we talk about planets.