Plot shortage

[flame7926]

I havent seen a bunch of female courtiers trying to kill anyone. As the King of Scotland in the demo there were three assassination plots I uncovered, one by my wife against my nephew, trying to help me, and one by a girl second in line for a title, and one by her husband trying to kill her. I think there should be more plots/ ambitions, if only as a king my three choices were to kill my wife, become a paragon of virtue, or amass wealth.

 

[CyberSpyder]

//CyberSpyder, sorry for posting your list without acknowledging you, but I thought your nick might be different here (as it is) even if you were here. When I read your list it just struck me that those points would be useful for the devs to know.

Oh, yeah, no worries. Just thought I'd see what people over here were making of it.

You think wrong. First of all yours is only selective memory. Second as the title of the thread clearly explains, the issue is on the contrary that there is -apparently- a lack of plots. So far I have only seen plots about assassination. According to Captain Gars there is an abundance of plots scripted for playable characters but so far none himself included has been able to point out where is this abundance.

There are a fair number of plots/ambitions for playable characters. They thin out a bit once you're independent, but you generally have at least the big three, amass wealth/become paragon of virtue/become exalted.

Now, a well-established playable character can in fact run out of non-assassination missions. If you have more piety than 100 and more prestige than 200, paragon of virtue and exalted cease being available, I imagine on the grounds that you've already made too much progress towards them. 'Amass wealth' you can generally get once, by taking it at less than 200 gold and succeeding at 500. After that, if you're independent, you're not likely to have anything available other than killing your spouse.

 

[EckyThump]

On this subject: the game does seem to insist that I should always have four assassination plots available, regardless of whether there's any reason I might want the character in question dead. Starting as William of Normandy, the death list before me includes:

1. The child-king of France (fair enough)
2. My wife (fair enough)
3. Ermengarde de Crecy (some no-mark in the King's court with no parents or family; for the life of me I can't figure out why his existence would even register in William's consciousness)
4. Raoul de Valois, Count of Vexin (my neighbour, but our relationship is in the low positive range, he's not on the inheritance list for any titles in Normandy, and none of William's relatives or vassals are on his successors list, either).

I've had a look through the plots file and I can't find anything that would be triggering 3 & 4. Is it just hard-coded that the player, or at least player characters with certain traits, must have a certain number of assassination targets from within the realm, and does this apply to AI characters, too?

 

[CyberSpyder]

I've had a look through the plots file and I can't find anything that would be triggering 3 & 4. Is it just hard-coded that the player, or at least player characters with certain traits, must have a certain number of assassination targets from within the realm, and does this apply to AI characters, too?

Huh. Definitely no hard-coded minimum number of assassination targets. Is one of them your spouse's lover, maybe?

(Actually, come to think of it, I don't suppose you'd be able to tell, would you? The 'lover' indication only seems to appear when you hover over your relationship to a character, and you can't see the relationship between two characters you're not playing)

You're sure Valois isn't set to inherit anything that you're also in line to inherit?

 

[postm00v]

At least CKII has more plots than CKI had.

*Runs away*

 

[EckyThump]

Huh. Definitely no hard-coded minimum number of assassination targets. Is one of them your spouse's lover, maybe?

(Actually, come to think of it, I don't suppose you'd be able to tell, would you? The 'lover' indication only seems to appear when you hover over your relationship to a character, and you can't see the relationship indication between two characters you're not playing)

You're sure Valois isn't set to inherit anything that you're also in line to inherit?

William's only potential inheritance at this point is the County of Maine, which is held by his under-age son; Maine's top three are William himself, and William's other sons, the Count's brothers.

 

[Aeon221]

I'd really like control over the assassination plots, or at least better targeting. For instance, I want to make plots to assassinate troublesome dukes or pretenders to a crown that I'm planning to inherit, but I can almost never find plots against those people.

My spouse, on the other hand, seems to constantly sit near the top of my To Kill list. Apparently they need to pay the ultimate price for farting in their sleep or something.

 

[CyberSpyder]

William's only potential inheritance at this point is the County of Maine, which is held by his under-age son; Maine's top three are William himself, and William's other sons, the Count's brothers.

Strange. Maybe your wife has a lot of lovers. o

 

[Wulfram]

Any idea why both Mathilda and the Bohemian guy have the option to plot against Ida von Cham? She appears to be a 12 year old with no relatives.

edit: She's in the Imperial court, which presumably has something to do with it.

 

[EckyThump]

Strange. Maybe your wife has a lot of lovers. o

Well, she is Lustful. Here's another set of precisely four, though, this time from the fully kosher Duke of Bohemia start:

1. The Kaiser's wife.
2. Friedrich von Dagsburg, another nobody from nowhere like Ermengarde de Crecy
3. The Kaiser's oldest sibling, who happens to be his sister Adela.
4. My wife.

Numbers 1 and 3 kind of make sense in a very long-term-thinking way, since they're the currently childless Kaiser's heir-maker, and #1 heir should he change to Absolute Cognatic inheritance...except that the Kaiser can't possibly institute Absolute Cognatic law, what with him being German and all. Number 4, well obviously a good feudal noble is never without a plan to off the Mrs and shack up with some young tart. But again, Herr Von Dagsburg being on that list just doesn't make any sense. In this situation (heirless Emperor on the throne and me in pole position to take over), the Kaiser should be on my list, not some doofus who spends his worthless days hanging out in Bamberg drinking up the Reichschnapps.

 

[CyberSpyder]

Well, she is Lustful. Here's another set of precisely four, though, this time from the fully kosher Duke of Bohemia start:

1. The Kaiser's wife.
2. Friedrich von Dagsburg, another nobody from nowhere like Ermengarde de Crecy
3. The Kaiser's oldest sibling, who happens to be his sister Adela.
4. My wife.

Numbers 1 and 3 kind of make sense in a very long-term-thinking way, since they're the currently childless Kaiser's heir-maker, and #1 heir should he change to Absolute Cognatic inheritance...except that the Kaiser can't possibly institute Absolute Cognatic law, what with him being German and all. Number 4, well obviously a good feudal noble is never without a plan to off the Mrs and shack up with some young tart. But again, Herr Von Dagsburg being on that list just doesn't make any sense. In this situation (heirless Emperor on the throne and me in pole position to take over), the Kaiser should be on my list, not some doofus who spends his worthless days hanging out in Bamberg drinking up the Reichschnapps.

Well, now this is odd. I loaded up the Duke of Bohemia myself, and my assassination options are:
1. Adela Salian, eldest sister of the Kaiser, like your #3.
2. Ida von Cham, an 11-year-old parentless girl in the court of the Kaiser (???)
3. Duke Otto I of Meissen
and, of course, 4. My wife.

I agree, none of the three really seem to match up to the assassination mission structure...maybe it's just bugged, like the dynamic events.

 

[Eoino]

I'd really like control over the assassination plots, or at least better targeting. For instance, I want to make plots to assassinate troublesome dukes or pretenders to a crown that I'm planning to inherit, but I can almost never find plots against those people.

My spouse, on the other hand, seems to constantly sit near the top of my To Kill list. Apparently they need to pay the ultimate price for farting in their sleep or something.

I agree

 

[EckyThump]

Well, now this is odd. I loaded up the Duke of Bohemia myself, and my assassination options are:
1. Adela Salian, eldest sister of the Kaiser, like your #3.
2. Ida von Cham, an 11-year-old parentless girl in the court of the Kaiser (???)
3. Duke Otto I of Meissen
and, of course, 4. My wife.

I agree, none of the three really seem to match up to the assassination mission structure...maybe it's just bugged, like the dynamic events.

Hmm...I've seen Ida von Cham's name on that list before, and Wulfram named her as well.

Reloading as Bohemia again, she actually does appear, along with the Kaiser and his wife...it's really weird, it's like the game is deliberately giving you one of a narrow selection of nobodies to plot against.

 

[Captain Gars]

According to Captain Gars there is an abundance of plots scripted for playable characters but so far none himself included has been able to point out where is this abundance.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said we have an "abundance" of plots - just that we choose to focus the ones we had the time to do on playable characters rather than random courtiers.

The problem only crops up from the fact that, since our married female courtiers have nothing else to do, they'll be constantly re-evaluating their plot priorities, and if the potential for one of these plots briefly opens up, they'll immediately take it. Whereas characters who have more ambition/plots open to them will pick one and stick with it, only re-evaluating once they're successful or when it becomes invalid.

If the chance value of picking the available plot/ambition becomes too low it doesn't matter if it's the only one available - the character won't pick it. This threshold value can perhaps need some tweaking which I will do if needed, and as a plus this value can be found in the defines whcih means that anyone can tweak it to their heart's content.

I'd really like control over the assassination plots, or at least better targeting. For instance, I want to make plots to assassinate troublesome dukes or pretenders to a crown that I'm planning to inherit, but I can almost never find plots against those people.

The plots are aimed at those targets we've deemed "legit". Anyone else you feel the needs to meet his maker can be assassinated through the normal assassinate diplo interaction.

 

[Demiurge4]

I think considering they are one of the few publishers in the entire industry who cater for a niche market these days, this seems mightuly unfair. They are a business and staff/development time are expensive. If a game isn't comparatively successful in niche terms, never mind mass market terms, then spending the money it would cost for dev time on expansion packs and whatnot would be suicide. You don't have to be a diehard pragmatist to see that? And besides, all it is is a qualifier added to the end of the 'yes we'll do more plots' post to make sure they aren't dragged over the coals later on by, forgive me for saying, people like yourself in the perhaps tiny chance they are not able to fulfil their goals to release a ton of extra content, given that you're already making upset comments at them even covering their arses and being careful in not making promises about additional content before the game is even released?

The original quoute was "There will most certainly be more plots in the future if CK2 is popular enough." Which can be interpreted as a poorly thought out passive-agressive statement or a candid admission that Paradox simply won't continue to support the game if it doesn't make a profit. My original comment assumed the former.

At any rate, it doesn't inspire confidence in me because of Paradox's recent fiasco with Sword of the Stars 2. So forgive me for being weary of buying their product when they attach "if its successfull enough" as a requirement for future support.

 

[postm00v]

And how does 'adding more plots' relate to 'continue support' ? It seems to me that adding more plots is purely content based, whereas support has a more 'fixing stuff' ring to it.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

The original quoute was "There will most certainly be more plots in the future if CK2 is popular enough." Which can be interpreted as a poorly thought out passive-agressive statement or a candid admission that Paradox simply won't continue to support the game if it doesn't make a profit. My original comment assumed the former.

At any rate, it doesn't inspire confidence in me because of Paradox's recent fiasco with Sword of the Stars 2. So forgive me for being weary of buying their product when they attach "if its successfull enough" as a requirement for future support.

Oh come one... this forum is abuzz with activity, don't worry about commercial success. I'm sure he did not mean his statement candidly or passive-aggressively at all.

If there are bugs with the plot machinery (beyond the TXT files), then the devs obviously are the only ones who can fix that. But assuming that is okay, anyone can go and make 1000 new plots... you really do not need Paradox developers to do that.

 

[jalapen0]

Yea you guys need to quit arguing and get to modding.

 

[CyberSpyder]

If the chance value of picking the available plot/ambition becomes too low it doesn't matter if it's the only one available - the character won't pick it. This threshold value can perhaps need some tweaking which I will do if needed, and as a plus this value can be found in the defines whcih means that anyone can tweak it to their heart's content.

True enough. But this only acts as another excluding factor to reduce the set of circumstances in which the mission will be available, not really addressing the fundamental problem. And in the case of the general assassination mission, the only factors which would reduce it low enough for the cutoff would be a content character gunning for a title for herself, or if the potential plotter likes the target greater than 80 - the latter of which is already excluded in most cases by the requirement to like the character less than 0.

Fundamentally, it just needs a few more things that could occupy the attention of married female courtiers, whether it be to see their spouses succeed, or their children, or...I don't know. Playing the demo, I've already modded the councilor requirements so that women can be chancellors, treasurers, and spymasters, as they could in CK1; if I likewise opened up the ambitions to become those positions, that would be enough, I think, right there to stem the tide of killer moms. But that does require that the positions be opened up to women, which may not be a change that Paradox wants for the base game.

 

[Sinbuster]

Wait, so the biggest gripe so far is a lack of plots? Where is the giant, white austrian blob or system crashing ghost fleets I can genuinly get angry about? Stupid paradox learnning from their past releases.